Breaking into Environmental Consulting, NAEP Updates, and Coffee with Mike Mayer

What are today's hiring managers actually looking for?

Laura interviews Mike Mayer, Past President of NAEP and Principal Environmental Project Manager at HDR, about the skills needed to succeed in environmental consulting and how NAEP has shaped his career. Plus, Mike shares how he balances working full-time with being a published author.

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Mike Mayer at https://www.linkedin.com/in/mstonemayer/ and michael.mayer@hdrinc.com. 

Guest Bio:
Mike Mayer is currently a Director of the National Association of Environmental Professionals and its Immediate Past President. He is also a Senior Professional Associate and Principal Environmental Project Manager for HDR, Inc. Mike is a natural resource professional with over 30 years of experience. He has worked on complex and controversial resource management issues regionally, nationally, and internationally as both a federal employee and an environmental consultant. Trained as both a wildlife biologist and environmental lawyer, he focuses his work on power and transmission, water, and natural resource projects and their adherence to environmental laws such as the National Environmental Policy Act and the Endangered Species Act. From endangered salmon issues in the Pacific Northwest to oil spill restoration in the Gulf of Mexico, to large river ecosystem restoration and wildlife management in National Parks, he has assisted federal agencies in navigating environmental laws to develop scientifically sound and legally defensible management plans, programs, and strategies. He also contributed to national endeavors such as the DOI initiative on adaptive management and internationally, with the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources Protection for the Republic of Georgia.

On the side Mike is an author of action thrillers, writing under the fairly obvious pen name M. Stone Mayer. He recently published his second book entitled "In the Crosshairs." It's a page-turning action thriller that takes place in the wilds of Oregon and Washington and the sequel to "Ashes to Ashes." Check out his website at www.mstonemayer.com. 

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental enthusiast Nic and Laura.

On today's episode, we discuss more on what hiring managers are looking for in an entry level position. Laura interviews Mike Mayer about breaking into environmental consulting, NAEP updates, and coffee.

And finally, we're doing some more fun facts about the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, or just Roman for short. It finally launched on August 30th, 2026 from NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. At the time of this recording, it has traveled approximately 836,000 miles and is expected to reach its final destination in early December 2026. Once it gets there, Roman will spend at least 5 years surveying the universe in infrared light, studying everything from dark matter to distant galaxies and exoplanets. If all goes well, the telescope is designed to continue operating for another 5 years, potentially giving Roman a decade-long mission in space.

Sam is really excited for the new deep space images.

She is not alone. I am too. Shout out to myself for being able to actually see this before it launched at NASA's Goddard Space Center. That was super cool, big career highlight.

So, oh, Nic, shout out to yourself. Love it,

right? That fits, doesn't it?

Maybe they can see your ego from space.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was wondering. Maybe I'll take a picture of that.

Yeah, what does it say?

Hit that music.

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Let's get to our segment.

You met with Mike and you guys talked a bit about hiring, what hiring managers are looking for in entry-level positions.

Yeah, I loved his answers. I kind of knew that. I don't know why. I just knew he was gonna give a good answer for it.

So I mean, what, what did you love about his answers? Why did you love them?

Because they're the same thing I tell people in coaching. I love when I ask people about things like that, and I'm like, yes, that's what I say.

Yeah, I mean, I, but they're also, they were really practical, like they really did make a lot of sense, right?

It's like, uh, you know, it's funny, I don't know where the, the conversation started. I haven't, I haven't heard it yet, but like the, I know we've talked about things like where it's like I don't mind if you're working at a coffee shop. I don't mind that that's where you put your, put on your resumes at the job that you have.

I do mind if that's all it says, uh, and there's no volunteering for environmental anythings, no highlights on the environmental work that you're doing. Nothing like that. It's just barista. It's not, doesn't tell me that you care about this at all. And I have resumes from people who have Degrees in it that have experience in it, etc.

So I mean I don't know what what I'm looking for every time we have these we end up with. Hundreds of applications, so many, and you know, even at, you know, at Dawson I would touch more of them than I do at Jacobs because it's a larger company. Jacobs screens a lot more of those resumes. And so I see a fraction of those and then of those it's a quick conversation, you know, it's a quick glance we talked about this all the time. It's, it's one you get maybe what, 60 seconds of looking at this resume to see if,

but when you are glancing, what are you, you mentioned, you know, actual environmental experience or at least interest,

yeah, I mean like look for the degree, see what it's in if it's someone junior junior, um, look for, you know, if there were internships, if there are entry level positions they're already in.

I mean, uh, depending on how many years, one of the things I've seen a few times on resumes is even with younger professionals I've seen, you know, 3 stops. So, so it's, you've been working in the industry for 3 years and you're in 3 different positions.

I've seen that. That's a big red flag for me is, yes, entry level is interchangeable. It is easy to replace, but that's not what I want. I'm not looking for someone that's gonna leave right away.

I mean, I'm looking for if it's a planning position, I, I hope that that's. Some of what you have as your experience when you're explaining what it is that you are doing, it should be, you know, actionable things like I am working on X, Y, and Z. I have done this well at that thing.

Put some numbers, but it's easier to do the longer you are in your career. You can say I led a team that had a $20 million you know, net revenue, blah blah blah. That's easy, but it doesn't mean you can't do it. For it's like, you know, 10 sections for 5 different Nipa documents or whatever it is you can put actual actionable things on there so I know what you're doing.

A lot of times if it's just like worked. Here I'm like, OK, I don't know what you did.

That's what I tell people to put in the how because you know the advice that's generic out there is put quantififiable information. I always say if you are not a manager, you don't have quantifiable information, so don't even try, but you can put how big and how much.

So if you tell me that you led the community events for this nonprofit, cool. How many? How many people attended? Do you actually tell me something about it, the whole thing together, or do you just put the agenda together like you don't tell me.

Yeah, so you need to say how big and how much, like, give us an idea and then the skills that you use. So did you actually use any software? Did you use a CRM? Did you do something like that or did you just put out a flyer?

Yeah, I mean, like, you know, an AI led stuff is interesting. If you have ability in that arena, people are paying attention to it, and you know, that's something I look at now that I didn't look at before and it can be discouraging too, but like, honestly, like, I still don't like hiring off resume if I don't have to.

I mean, I don't,

OK, and here is, yes, one of the biggest frustrations that I hear from people as a career coach is, well, how come no one, I'm not getting any interviews, I'm not getting picked, I'm qualified.

Well, so we're 400 other people.

Yes. And so your job is not to be qualified. Your job is to stand out. So everyone else is not volunteering, so volunteer. Everyone else is not demonstrating their passion in their cover letter. So demonstrate your passion in the cover letter.

Do the things no one else is doing, so you come to the top and like you just said, don't tell me on your resume what you have done. Tell me what you can do.

Yeah, and it's all forward focused and it's not like everybody has to have drive either. It's not like I expect everyone to be like, I wanna be CEO of Fortune 500 company. That's also a nonsensical thing. I would not hire somebody that said that in a junior level position.

At that point, like my, my thought process is you don't even know what you're good at yet, and I don't mean that to be insulting or, or rude. It's not that people can't know cause some people do, honestly, some people are like, I wanna be a doctor. I'm gonna be good at this, and I am good at it and I love it. It is possible.

Most people don't really fit in that category, so most people when they're coming in, like my goal for year one isn't for you to take over your current manager's job. My goal is for you to learn everything there is about this profession to see where you fit.

And that's like I say, like if I can avoid looking through 100 resumes and someone tells me, hey, I've worked with so and so, they're great, interview them, they get the interview, they get the interview.

And that was the other point I wanted to make, so not only Am I looking for all this stuff on your resume and you need to stand out, but most times they're not getting selected because they've already chosen someone from a referral from internal or from volunteering or internship.

Which is, is like, to me it's also like the business that I'm in is, you know, marketing is a very big part of it. Even if you're not a marketer, even if you're not a salesperson, you don't need to do that, but you do have to be engaged and engaged in multiple ways.

When someone refers you, you are engaged. I know you're engaged because someone referred you. They don't do that unless they, well, I mean there's lots of reasons it could happen, but most of the time when someone refers to you and if especially if it's not somebody that I know and respect, if it's someone that's like that. And it's super easy and I'm like, OK,

yeah, um, I always describe it this way. It's a business decision and business decisions are 100% about reducing risk. And the best way I'm gonna do that in my hiring decisions is to choose someone who's been referred to me by a qualified source.

Yes, it's not personal. Everyone wants to take it personal and like talk about like it's a bad thing. I mean, it's a, it's maybe a bad thing if it's nepotism, but The fact that it happens is because it's, it's less risk for the company. So I think if you view it that way, it's maybe easier not to take personal.

Right. And I mean, you know, there's other ways to do it too. I will say research is important, right? Find out who the hiring manager is, see if you can figure that out.

Because if you can do that and you can find them on LinkedIn, you can be like, hey, I applied for this. I think you should interview me and here's why, which is what Somebody did to me and they ended up I was like, fine, you wanna shoot your shot? Let's talk. And we actually did end up hiring that person and then it was a great hire, great.

And again, that's one of those things I love hearing because that's what I'm telling everybody and they, they, when they hear it, they're like, they don't believe you. There's this little kernel of I know you don't believe what I'm telling you, but this is truth.

But I mean like that was a great example. That was like 75 resumes I looked through like in like, you know, 24 hours and I'm just, I actually got into the end of the interview cycle. I'd picked like 5 or 6.

And then this pops up and it's like, hey, I just applied to this thing you should interview me here's why um and um yeah it was pretty funny how that worked and

That's very different, right? No one else did that. Not a single other person, and we had like, I think that was like 300 resumes for that position and one person reached out to me. One person figured out that it was me.

Exactly. That's what I tell people, be bold, stand out, and that person didn't bother you. So when I'm also telling people that your homework is to go apply for applications and submit. Some sort of networking message to someone and every single one you apply for, they always, I could feel it, they shrink down, well, it's too scary. I'm doing too much, but then they're not gonna get picked because that other person who was bold enough to do it is the one who is.

Yeah, standing out so much more important, especially at the junior position. I mean, Companies take more risk as the role gets higher. Like there's more risk, but there's also less leash. Like there's like they're more willing to fire people right away that don't work out.

But still, like the same applies all the way through your career. Once you get that job, you've also got to make sure you make connections, be charming, you know,

you know, be kind. We can make that part too.

Yeah, it's true.

We could keep going forever. You're totally right. So yeah, well, why don't we just get to our interview then?

Yeah, let's get to Mike's advice cause it was great.

Welcome back to EPR. Today we're joined by Mike Mayer, a director for the National Association of Environmental Professionals and the immediate past president. He is also senior professional associate and principal environmental project manager with HDR and a published author. Welcome back, Mike.

Hey, thanks for having me. It's always fun to come back.

Yes, I think this is your 3rd time on the show, right? The 1st time was right after you published your first book, or maybe you were,

I think this is the 4th time I was the I was the inaugural person on the 1st episode.

Oh my gosh, I knew you were like an OG, but I didn't know it was that.

Yeah and you still keep inviting me on. I don't know what you guys are thinking.

Well you keep coming back. So, um, all right, so that was the last time at the NAP conference 2024, 2025 probably I've helped Nic at the conference.

Yeah,

awesome. Well, thanks for coming back. Nic, as I said, is doing Nipa training today, so he's not joining us, but I think you guys are in touch more often because you're both part of the board.

So let's start with, you know, the most fun stuff which I think might be your book. So your second book is In the Crosshairs. And it's a sequel to Ashes to Ashes, right?

It is, yeah, it's a sequel that takes place again in Oregon where I kind of had written it, and it picks up about five years later after where Ashes to Ashes drops off and the three main characters get back together in Oregon to reconnect and have a camping trip and unbeknownst to them they are in the crosshairs and so it's again kind of a page turning cat and mouse environmental twist to it, yeah.

Awesome. So how was the first book received and how does that compare to now this one?

Yeah, the folks that read the first one seemed to like it. Those that didn't like it didn't tell me, so that's even better. Um, and you know, I've gotten the same kind of reaction for book 21 person told me that she was really angry with me because As you get further on, the chapters get a little longer, and she couldn't put it down and was staying up late reading it, so I'm like, oh I guess you can be mad at me for that. I'll take it.

So yeah, hopefully folks enjoy it and there is a book 3, so come out in a couple of years, but yeah.

Awesome. So what's it like living this sort of dual life as an environmental project manager and author?

It's very busy and tiring. Um, I really enjoy writing the fiction. It's my creative outlet. Not super creative about trying to market it all, but I really enjoy writing it.

So when I do have time to write, that's great, but when I'm trying to do book fairs and that kind of stuff, it's just, it's tiring. So, but yeah, just trying to juggle things as always.

Yeah, that's awesome. As a book publisher, I can tell you you're not alone there. Every author loves to write, doesn't like the marketing promotion side at all. I mean, most authors write because they like to be in the shadows and pen in hand and not really out in front of people.

Have you had any highlights or events that you have done that you really did like?

Yeah, like I've, I've had a couple of release parties here in Minnesota and I go to a couple of the conferences that writers go to. There's the um International Thriller Writers Association in New York City that I go to.

I try to go to every year, hobnob with the big, well-known authors, just try to have some of their greatness rub off on me.

But um, yeah, yeah, so, um, hopefully get to do a little bit more of that. It's a little easier, I think now than having two books out rather than just the one. So still doing a lot of book fairs and that kind of thing around here in Minnesota.

Awesome. Is that where you sell most of your books or do they come from online sales?

That's where I sell most of them is that or, yeah, yep.

Awesome. Well, we have not had anybody really from the NAAP board on in a while, so can you give us sort of your NAAP elevator pitch and how do we get listeners to get involved who haven't yet?

Yeah, so the National Association of Environmental Professionals is a group of folks that all have a passion for suspect in the environmental field in which they work. We are a pretty diverse group. We have economists, attorneys, biologists, all kinds of biologists, hazardous waste folks, so it's a really broad, broad family.

We have an annual conference every year. This year is going to be in San Antonio in May, and we usually have some trainings on either side of that related to the National Environmental Policy Act.

And yeah, it's just a great time to get involved. There's a lot of things changing if you work in the environmental profession. And so we are one of those organizations that kind of provide that unbiased assessment as to what those changes are and how they may impact what you do.

Awesome. So. And as past president, do you have any advice for Nic, who is either serving as president or about to be? I always forget where he is in his life.

Yeah, so, so. vice president and will be up for up for the presidency. It's kind of funny because it kind of is a wave, right? So like vice president's job is not so hard and then the president's job is kind of hard, much harder, and then the immediate past president's pretty easy going out the door.

So yeah, he's just about to hit the crest of the wave, so I wish him luck as I move off the executive committee, yeah, yeah, so.

Oh, that's Nic. He's one to take as much challenges as possible at one time.

Yeah.

So, what are the, have you seen in your experience is the benefit not only of being a member but actually joining the board or volunteering or joining a work group as far as it relates to your career?

Yeah, getting involved, whether it's on the board or one of our many committees, I think is really helpful for anyone's career, especially when you're starting out.

You may know some folks who you work with, but this will broaden that group of colleagues nationally and some internationally and to folks that you may not think you would ever talk to.

And so, you know, you may have access to senior leaders in the government, whether The Council of Environmental Quality or National Park Service or some other agency that you may be working with one of those folks who is a member or is interested in some of the trainings or that kind of thing.

And so it's a great networking and educational kind of venue for folks growing in their career.

Awesome. And you've been in your career for a few decades now and have spent a lot of time on natural resource management and I think law, right?

Yeah, my background, um, my background is in wildlife and fisheries biology and environmental law, and I've been doing environmental science and planning for most of my career, which has been a long time now.

Yeah, I see HDR is one of those companies that is great to just work for if someone's looking for their first consulting role. What type of projects are you working on right now that you're really enjoying?

Sure, so my projects are pretty broad-based. I'm doing some transmission line development, routing and sighting. Most of my stuff, because of my background, I used to work for the federal government a career ago. But still understand the processes and those types of things.

So a lot of my projects I get put on, work on have a federal nexus to them. So some federal laws are being triggered or a federal agency is trying to do them. And so I still do a lot of work on projects that have Department of Energy intersections as well as, so I'm working on a transmission line for that.

I've been working on some renewable energy as well around different parts of the country. And I've been working on a grizzly bear restoration plan, EIS for Fish and Wildlife Service.

So, kind of a, a big spectrum of, of different types of projects.

Yes, that is a wide variety, and I think that's the benefit of getting into this type of work. So, where to start? Transmission lines, what does that project or work in that look like?

Yeah, so usually with transmission lines, and it's really interesting too because typically, unless it's a federal power marketing agency like the Western Area Power Administration, The rest of the transmission line companies, utility companies, are private in the sense that they have to go through state processes to get siting, and so the states approve transmission line routes.

And so the first step is a routing and siting study where you are looking at a bunch of different, different routes and alternative routes and trying to minimize impacts to both natural, cultural and socioeconomic features as to the extent you can.

And then you're kind of narrowing it down to a proposed route and if you're just in the state process, then you're doing an application for You know, facility permit or a route permit through the state.

It gets complicated when you're working across state boundaries because you have multiple applications going into different states and it gets more complicated when there's some federal funding involved because the federal government doesn't have citing authority over the states in that particular field and so you're trying to, you know, sequence things in a way that makes sense but also doesn't confuse the public.

Yeah, how long does a project like this take?

It really depends. Usually the routing and siting and the application process take maybe a couple of years to get through, and then there's a lot of surveys that still are required to be done, natural resource culture resource surveys for the line.

Construction takes about 5 years typically to construct it, depending on the length of it and that kind of stuff. And then, you know, you're dealing with what's probably not talked enough about is supply chain issues and There's a lot of transmission lines being built and not a lot of suppliers of that material, so, um, there's some supply chain issues as well.

That makes sense. How does a project like that compare to a grizzly bear habitat restoration?

Well, one is very linear. The alternatives are typically different places, you know, we'll route it this way, we'll route it that way, that kind of thing, whereas grizzly bears, it's more of alternatives are more like how can we work to recover this species, whether we reintroduce them, whether we, if we can reintroduce them.

What management actions might we take to actually implement recovery actions and what authority does the agency have to actually do it?

So I'd worked on one where the Park Service and Fish and Wildlife Service were co-leads. There, the Park Service actually had lands, so there's North Cascades, and so there was a place the park could put bears, bring bears in, whereas with the other one in the Bitterroot, it's just Wildlife Service and so they have to work with others to, you know, figure out ways to help increase bear numbers for recovery purposes.

And so it's just a little different dynamic in terms of the different agencies in their area of regulation and coverage.

Yeah, in any of these types of projects, there's often pushback. Is there anybody who doesn't want more grizzly bears?

Oh, there's lots of people, yep, but there's also lots of people that do. And so it's just part of the Endangered Species Act is when they get listed, the intent is to get them off the list through recovery actions and so grizzly bear is just like that, like whooping crane is and others, but Some folks, because grizzly bears are, they're omnivorous, like black bears, but they're big and they have killed people in the past and so there's a certain level of fear around them or competition for resources, that kind of thing, and so you get kind of the comments that way.

And then you also get comments the other way about wanting to have a complete ecosystem with all the parts and not missing any of the of the cogs in the wheel, quote, now to Leopold a little bit.

So yeah, you get kind of the full spectrum of of comments on those types of projects.

Oh, I bet. All right, so you're doing all these different types of projects. If I just graduated environmental science degree and I'm like, OK, I gotta, I'm, I wanna work in these types of things. I didn't even know I could do this many varied types of projects, but who is HDR hiring? What are they looking for when they're having entry level applications out there?

Sure, like a lot of other consulting firms, we have an internship program, which I think is a great way to get your first kind of dip your toe into consulting. And understand a little bit what we do when we're looking to hire entry level employees, we are looking to kind of fill certain roles.

And so one of the big pieces is being a good writer and so making sure that that is part of it.

When I look at things, I look at for cover letters too if people are applying. Because a cover letter, you know, you have your resume, but a cover letter is really a place where you can really petition for the job, right, show your passion for it, why you want to be there.

So I find that really important when people submit applications.

But then we're also looking for, you know, not just some class experience, but also Someone who has gone a little bit extra in their college years and gotten some, you know, volunteer experience or has done some part-time jobs on any of the, you know, natural resources or socioeconomic resources that we deal with to add a little bit more so we, we kind of have a little bit more. Coming in.

And so, yeah, those are some of the things that we look for. I look for the hiring manager.

Yeah, that's perfect. I love that. And those of you who are maybe in this position, that's great advice.

You mentioned earlier that NAP exists to help break down the changes in regulations and stuff. Are there any currently right now, one or two that rise to the top that people should be talking about?

Right now, probably the biggest one is the rescission of the definition of harm. Under the Endangered Species Act by the administration that also in kind of combination with a memo that came out it was came out September 14th, which was the same day that the final rule rescinding the definition came out which kind of refocused how Fish and Wildlife Service was directed to interpret take of a species and so it really changes. The dynamic of the Endangered Species Act and what it was intended to be, the administration kind of has, you know, with the rescission of the definition of harm they've adopted.

So there was a court case back in 1995, Babbitt versus Sweet Home chapter of Communities for Greater Oregon, where the majority found that the definition, regulatory definition of harm that the interior passed was reasonable, and the dissent had a whole bunch of reasons why they didn't think it was. Reasonable, and that was the dissent was by Justice Scalia.

There's also a concurring opinion that no one seems to want to talk about that was really helpful because it actually kind of went point for point with Justice Scalia's dissent as to why it may not be the best interpretation of the law.

Anyway, the memo. And the rule that was put out by the administration suggests that the dissent's opinion is the best reading of the law and using the Scalia's approach to the definition of take under the Endangered Species Act, and what that results in is now requiring an affirmative action that has intent and is directed purposely directed at a particular animal. To cause them injury or harm or injury or death.

And so what it does is it takes away the idea of incidental take or indirect take or even harm that isn't something you're directing at the species. It kind of flies in the face of Section 10 and the amendments that Congress put in back in the 80s to allow for incidental take for otherwise lawful activities.

So we're going to see there's a bunch of lawsuits about it right now. That have been filed and we're going to see where it all settles out, but right now there's a lot of folks, a lot of uncertainty.

So for example, in that memo they said that a ship that inadvertently strikes a whale is not take as long as the ship didn't go out to directly hit the whale on purpose or someone who cuts a tree down to harvest a tree, even though there's a bat roosting in it that might die, that also isn't take or traditionally those things would be take under the law and so. Those are two of the examples that they put out in the memo and so it's really interesting to see what happens and it's a similar approach that they've taken for take on the Marketory Bird Treaty Act where you're not doing it for the purpose of killing or injuring the species, then it's OK and we'll see what happens with the Marine Mammal Protection Act because it also has similar provisions for incidental harassment and those types of things.

So stay tuned. There's definitely more coming.

It's definitely an interesting time.

It definitely is, and that's a, if you're on the side of the animals, that seems very frustrating. And it feels like there's arguments if you applied that same rule to humans, there'd be a lot of people against it.

Well, it just even flies in the face of the historic cases that were some of the seminal cases for the Endangered Species Act.

So a lot of folks that work on endangered species issue know the case Tennessee Valley Hill or Tennessee Valley Authority versus Hill, TVA versus Hill, where basically they stopped the construction of a dam, Tennessee Valley Authority Dam, because of its potential for causing the extinction of a localized fish, a snail darter.

The dam that under this interpretation that take would be incidental and not directed at the species for the purpose of making them go extinct. And so TVA versus Hill wouldn't necessarily be a take under this new interpretation or revised interpretation.

So it just, you know, that was one of the first cases back in '78 and has been kind of a flagpole for Congress's comprehensive approach to endangered species management and recovery.

So we'll see what happens with As things progress.

Do you think this will end up being something on the next administration's plate to undo?

I'm not sure it will. So a lot of this comes down to when, so there was a case that was Chevron versus NRDC back in '84, and it resulted in what's called Chevron deference, so that agencies Have deference if their interpretation of the law is reasonable.

That was overturned in 2024 in the Loper Bright decision where there it was decided that it's really the courts that should make that decision on what is the interpretation of reasoned interpretation of the law and not the agencies. And if Congress wants to fix it, Congress can amend those laws.

And so this is kind of coming out of that. But again, it seems to me, and this is just my opinion alone, that when they are adopting a dissent's opinion in a Supreme Court case and saying it's the best reading of the law, that is seeking some type of agency discretion that it's accurate and reasonable.

So again, it's even with Loper Bright, their interpretation would be subject to a court determining whether or not it is actually what Congress intended, so. Yeah, it gets really murky and circular at some of this, and so we'll see what happens with these court cases.

But I don't know that it will take a new administration to fix it, or that it will, or Congress could step up to and make some changes.

Right, that makes sense. Well, it sounds like your projects are kind of all over the place as well. So do you travel a lot?

I do. I travel a fair amount. It comes and goes, not every week or anything. I actually head to Phoenix on Monday, but But some of my projects are more local.

I can drive. The transmission line is in the Dakotas, so it's only 4 hours away by car.

So it just depends, but I do like to travel and see these other places and really get an understanding of people in those other places and the issues that they are facing and their concerns about some of these projects and whether the project is going to result in benefits or cause consternation for them or those types of things, because I think it's really important to understand that as well.

Awesome. Well, as you know, since you've been here a few times, we have a segment called #Feel notes, the part of our show where we talk to our guests about their memorable moments doing the work.

So we ask listeners to share their funny, scary, awkward, or all three stories with us so we can share them on a future episode.

So, Mike, you've been through this drill before. Any stories come to mind?

I know, I was trying to think of the one I told last time, which I think was about my work as a deer biologist when I was working on my master's.

So the other one that always comes to mind for me is I was a technician 1000 years ago in undergrad in Massachusetts on a black bear study.

One of the days we went out with a bear biologist who was working on his PhD, and we were Trying to change colors on bears, we had about 20 female bears collared, and we were checking them to see about reproductive health and cub cub development and cub survivability and all that kind of stuff, and we had to go out and change radio collars, and this one female got up in a tree with her cubs and got up in the middle of it, and there was a crook and she There and so we put a net, basically like a fireman's net around the tree, which is what they typically do, and they were concerned.

So me, the lowly undergrad with two grad students, grad students and some other professionals were concerned that the bear, if they darted the bear, the mother where she was, she would just sit in the crutch of the tree and not come down, and they wouldn't be able to get her.

And so they said I should climb up the tree to get her to come down a little bit. And me being dumb, I said, Oh, OK, sure, I can do that.

And so I started climbing up this tree, and you see bears go up trees, you know, and come down trees, you know, scoot backwards down trees and stuff, and you're like, Yeah, yeah, I can do that.

They move like squirrels when they want to in trees.

I was up that tree about, I don't know, 6 or 7 ft, and that that mama bear turned around and came headfirst down that tree like a squirrel.

And I jumped from where I was, get out of the way, and they were able to dart her and catch her and she landed in the net and all that good stuff.

But um yeah, it was uh It was a time when I was like, yeah, OK, next time not doing what the grad students say.

So that is hilarious. One of the other stories for that day. I don't even think it was a volunteer. I don't even think there was hazard pay.

We had another story. Somebody went, it was like the opposite. They went, maybe it's the same trip, they went into the tree to hold one of the cubs.

That sounds dangerous too.

There's there's a growing theme here that if you were asked to do something like this, it may sound like a good idea at the time, but maybe actually not.

Yeah, if your inner voice is like, hm, maybe not, listen to your inner voice.

So how do you find time to work on all these projects and write?

I try to keep my weekends as free as I can for writing. Usually it's a morning kind of thing. I will go to a coffee shop, plug my headphones in, and write for a couple of hours each weekend morning. That's what I really try to do.

A lot of authors like write every day, and it's just not really feasible for me to do that. I mean, I think it would be that was my full-time job, but it's not.

And so, and really my hope is to be able to Kind of segue into that when I retire so that I have a, you know, have some books out there and that kind of thing and I can just do that full time in retirement at that point.

But yeah, right now it's, it's mostly finding those mornings. I don't write at home very well and so I have to go somewhere.

And luckily I live in a little college town, so there's a ton of coffee shops around, so I can kind of work the coffee shops and get some writing done then.

Awesome. I'm the kind of the same way. If I stay at home, I'm way too distracted. If I go, I went to, I was at a coffee shop working this morning and I was like, wow, I cleared my list pretty fast.

Exactly, exactly. It's really funny. It's just the way I work well, like, cause I don't necessarily wanna talk to anybody in the coffee shop. Put my headphones in and I want to be able to like focus on what I'm doing and just kind of block out the noise, but I kind of like having to block out the noise.

So same, I had someone say to me before, yeah, like I can't do that because it's just too many distractions. But for whatever, for me, the distractions actually help me focus. It's like I feel like I can't be looking at my phone or doing something else when there are other people around me working and talking and stuff.

Yeah, yep.

I drink a lot of coffee though, so that's the only downside probably.

Any favorite coffee of choice or just straight up like coffee?

So I got into cortados, and I think in Puerto Rico it's mostly coffee, a little bit of, yeah, mostly espresso and a little bit of cream, I think, um. And then I think it's Cordido Cortitito in in um Puerto Rico.

I had a project in Puerto Rico and got into those two. Those were kind of fun.

But yeah, usually cause I'm doing it so much, I try to like not have it affect my wallet. And I'm just drip coffee that I could certainly make at home, but you know you spend 20 bucks on coffee because you spent a couple hours there.

I know I will do that too if I'm there too long. I'm like, oh I gotta go buy something else.

Exactly.

And then the cash and the calories start adding up.

And all right, I'm trying to sneak in some what things of interest do you do and we've already had you on the show. We talked earlier, you just hiked an amazing hike with your daughter for her graduation.

Yeah, so, uh, yeah, my daughter graduated from University of Washington with an international studies degree, and what I told her was we'd go on a trip somewhere and she is, uh, she's pretty hardcore.

She is a backpacker but also a mountaineer. And so she's been trying to summit all the mountains in Washington, so she's got a couple down. She's tried Rainier a couple of times, and so she's totally hardcore that way.

I've never been that way, but she and I were backpacking buddies. We'd go backpacking together and so we went to Spain and to Oviedo and did the Camino de Santiago, the Primitivo walk, so it was The original one that was done and it's about 200 miles walking through the countryside of northern Spain between Oviedo and Santiago de Compostela and sleeping in hostels or hotels or inns at night and stopping and getting lunches and stuff at cafes, but backpacking too, you know, we carried all of our stuff for those 200 miles and it was pretty amazing and I probably haven't spent that much time with her, just me and her, since before she went to high school, and so, you know, spending 13 days hiking, you know, 7 hours a day with someone, we still talk and we still like each other, so it turned out to be a great trip.

That's amazing. How many other people are on that trail when you're, you're on it too?

So there's a bunch of different Caminos and so there's probably, and so when you start in the morning at the beginning in Oviedo, it's almost like a group starts.

They may not start at the same time, but you then see that group for 3 or 4 days because you walk past them or you see them getting, you know, a drink or whatnot.

And so they're probably About 20 people that we recognized on a daily basis after the first couple of days.

We actually met this guy from Taiwan who we kept running into and he's a great guy and he wanted to take selfies with us all the time and he spoke. I felt bad because my Spanish is not, is no bien. And he was speaking Spanish and English, Chinese, and yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was amazing.

But we met people from all over the world and what's really funny is you're trying to speak Spanish cause you're, you know, immersed there and you think everyone is Spanish speaking and so you're, you know, trying to get through it and then you, you, the people you, you were talking to in Spanish walk away and they start talking in English to each other.

You're like, wait, wait a minute, where are you guys from?

They're like, oh, New York.

I'm like, wait a minute, you're from New York?

So it's kind of funny that way.

It's what's what's also really cool is, so when you get to Santiago, that's where all the caminos combine to one spot, right? It all goes to the cathedral there and so you walk through these archways through Old Town as you're getting in and you walk into this plaza and there's like 1000 other pilgrims with backpacks and stuff that have just gotten there and hanging out and taking pictures and stuff, so it's pretty cool that way too.

Yeah, how do you come back from a trip like that? Do you feel new lease on life, or?

Yeah, I mean, I felt really relaxed once my knees stopped swelling. The last couple of days was a lot of downhill on pavement, and so it was just like killing my joints, but um, No, I mean it was definitely relaxing.

Now I feel like I'm a slug because I'm not walking like 15 miles a day with a backpack on, but yeah, it definitely gives you a new perspective and any, you know, traveling anywhere, especially out of the country too, provides you a perspective, and it was kind of fun because we went to Spain after they won the World Cup and so there was still a lot of, a lot of excitement over there for that as well, yeah, so that was pretty fun too.

Yes, I had a taste of that and I think 2009. I think they won the World Cup, but it was in another country, but I was still there. For when they're doing it, yeah, so amazing.

Well, is there anything else you want to chat about before I let you go?

No, it's just great to uh catch up with you and Nic missed out on a great conversation. So it's unfortunate for him, but uh thanks for having me on again. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for a great conversation. We love making Nic jealous anytime that we can.

So, thanks for joining us again today. And lastly, where can people get in touch with you?

You can uh reach out to me on LinkedIn or you can certainly email me. Michael. Mayer@HRInc.com if it's about environmental stuff. Uh you can also check out my website, Mstone Mayer, M S T O N E M A Y E R.com if it's about my writing stuff.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. We'll see you again soon.

And that's our show. Thank you, Mike, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. See you, everybody. Bye.