Mitigation Banking, Planning Successful Conferences, and Hidden Gem Travel Spots with Kae Hovater

Laura interviews Kae Hovater, president of EcoCredit Marketing, to explore how mitigation banking supports responsible development while restoring and protecting wetlands, streams, and wildlife habitat. From navigating changing regulations and building a career through connection to planning successful conferences and discovering hidden travel gems, this episode highlights the value of communication, curiosity, and a passion for conservation.

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

This episode is sponsored by EcoCredit Marketing. Learn more at www.ecocreditmarketing.com

Please be sure to ✔️subscribe, ⭐rate and ✍review. 

This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Kae Hovater at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaehovater/ 

Guest Bio:
Kae Hovater is President of EcoCredit Marketing and has spent more than 17 years working in the mitigation banking industry.  Her work with mitigation banks across the country puts her at the intersection of conservation, development, and the complex world of environmental markets.  Kae has also served as a leader with the Florida Association of Mitigation Bankers and has helped organize its annual workshop for the past eight years.  Known for making a complex industry approachable, Kae is passionate about bringing people together, building relationships, and reminding us that behind every project, permit, and policy are people with a story to tell.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura.

On today's episode, Sam asked me about my Ecological Society of America conference participation. And we interview Kae Hovater about mitigation banking, planning successful conferences, and hidden gem travel spots.

And finally, since we're approaching the end of summer, that makes me sad. Here are some fun facts about our favorite nighttime bug, the firefly. Baby fireflies are fierce little predators hunting down slugs and snails in the garden. Some females mimic the flesh patterns of other firefly species to lure in males and then eat them. That's fun. Fireflies have been around for about 100 million years, back when dinosaurs still roamed, that would have been magical to see. And lastly, a group of them is called a sparkle. I love that.

Hit that music

This episode is sponsored by EcoCredit Marketing. EcoCredit Marketing offers customized environmental credit solutions for projects across the United States. Their work supports responsible development while restoring, enhancing, and protecting wetlands, streams, and wildlife habitat throughout the country. Learn more at ecocreditmarketing.com.

Let's get to our segment. So Laura, I heard you went to the Ecological Society of America conference some time ago. What did you do there? How was it?

I did. So ESA, you know, is, as you said, the Ecological Society of America. It was their 111th conference, which is astounding, and it was my first year there. It was in Salt Lake City. They had asked me to come and do a career workshop, and also to do one on ones at a table when I wasn't doing the workshop.

Nice.

Yeah, so it was pretty awesome. I have not been to an event or conference like this with so many young people. They have an entire career corner, like literally in the exhibit hall, there's a whole corner of two stages.

And for 3 full days, so it's a 5 day conference, and this thing is gigantic, 3 full days they have conference programming, 3 full days they have career programming alongside all of the other tracks that they have. So they have people are giving panels on careers.

In specific areas, like specifically for ecologists, like how do you switch from academia to industry, so they've got people who are talking about industry, how do you get a job in consulting?

I don't know if you know this, but typically for ecological track specifically, they sort of funnel people into academia and higher education, so into PhDs and then tenure tracks.

Gotcha.

Historically that is kind of what you did, and then you do your research and then become an expert in whatever you're doing, and then that was your thing, but as of late, it's less common for that, there's less of those positions available.

Because things are changing at the university level, and so a lot of people are now like, OK, I have my degree, I even have my PhD. How do I get into something else? Or how do I just at least expand my options so that I'm not only looking at academia, and so that was what they had asked me to do is sort of speak on that.

So not just my experience, they have plenty of people there's talking about how to get into consulting or what their job is like in consulting or what a job in habitat restoration is like. But I was there to do the functional stuff, like how to update your resume, how to turn your CV into a resume.

So even in that track, they're taught to build CVs because in the university that's what you're submitting, but then in the real world, they, they need a resume. So I did a 3 hour workshop, first on resumes, first hour, second hour was on interviewing, and the third hour was on networking.

Nice. So what advice did you have?

This is sort of my advice, go for it. There's not a lot that scary things that you think are gonna happen or not gonna happen, right?

Yeah, so I'll give you like the high level on each one. So resumes, focus less on what you have done and more on what you can do.

Hm.

The person reading your resume is not going to make the translation for you on transferable skills. So if you did something related or closely related, their mind is looking for, can you do this work, and you're like, oh, I did this, it's close, they'll figure it out. No, they won't.

So just put that lens on it, high level advice for interviewing. Ask great questions. I do not come into an interview without having researched the company, the job, or what other kind of people work there. Did you look at all of their social medias and you have a clear understanding of what they do.

A lot of times people give away their ignorance in the questions. So maybe you even did great during the interview, but then you get to the questions and they're like, do you have questions for me? And you say, no, that's mistake number 12 is a bad, poorly thought out questions.

So the question is where you can really kind of, it's right at the end, you get to nail it in that part and say, I, I researched this, I know what this is, I know what this job is for, and I'm ready to do it.

And so high level advice for networking. It's really just make yourself do it. So join something. My advice for networking is to join something, um, instead of looking for like these one thing here, one thing there. It's much easier, I think over time to build relationships with people.

It's something that you can go back to whether it's in person. Obviously that's the best, but even if it's just a virtual thing where you can show people what you're capable of that way, and you're much more likely to not only get someone to recommend you for something because people don't want to recommend someone they really don't know.

That's like the worst thing in the world to recommend somebody and then go, uh, oh, they, they didn't do well, like whoops.

So that would be my high level advice for networking is just to get involved in something, right, like volunteering.

Yes, could be volunteering, it could be a board, it's something that you can keep going back to, could be an AP, you know, if you have one in your area, right?

So I have a question.

Yeah, on my couple of interviews that I've ever done in my life, I've always hated the question type, cause like, yes, I would look up the, the company or whatever, look up the, the job description. But I'm like, I don't know what to ask about this, like, yes, I know what I'm applying for, but I don't know what to ask.

Yeah, and I think that's common. I suggest looking at it from the flip side that you're interviewing them. So really think about what don't you know if you want this job.

So if I want to take this job, so instead of like the lens of I need this job, like maybe I don't need this job. Do I want this job and what do I need to know to say yes?

So I need to know what kind of projects am I going to be working on. I saw that you work in mining or I saw that you work in habitat restoration. I'm really interested in this. Do I get to work on that type of project?

Or, you know, I looked at the leadership and it looks like you only hire a certain type of people, like you have diversity statements, are you diverse? And of course you can ask a little more tactfully, but you're looking for those things that are like, do I want this job, not just like what is it, you know.

Right, yeah, that makes sense.

And my favorite question, I'm giving this away to everyone, used to be a secret is if you hired me for this, what can I do today to get started?

Oh, that's a good one. I'm gonna pin that one down.

I know that was my secret. I just gave it away. You all have it now.

Thank you.

We are wishing Nic well, as we said, he's on paternity leave and super exhausted. It's OK that he's not here, but thank you, Sam, for asking, filling in and asking some questions.

Anytime.

All right, let's get to the interview.

Welcome back to EPR. Today we're joined by Kae Hovater, president of Eco Credit Marketing. Welcome, Kae. It's awesome to have you on the show.

Thanks so much, Laura. I'm so glad to be here.

Awesome. I'm glad to have my fellow Floridian on today. We've been running in certain similar circles with FAEP for a long time. So I want to start off talking about that actually, you know, this show is hosted by NAEP, the National Association of Environmental Professionals, and we encourage people to join.

We love sharing from all our environmental professional friends who are some members, some non-members on the podcast, but when we have members here, we I'd like to talk about why it's so great to join a regional chapter if you have one in your area.

Absolutely. I mean, it's really great to be able to stay on top of events and issues that are front and center in the environmental world. I think you know, as well as I do, Laura, like, every day, it feels like something is changing, right?

Like we just dealt with ESA and they're taking away the definition of harm, and what does that mean?

And so, really, I think joining something like FAAP and NAEP really helps you keep abreast of all of that information, because honestly, I work a lot with consultants that are engaged in associations like that, and environmental associations and those that don't.

And I can tell a huge difference as to What they're recommending their clients versus those that really just are trying, like kind of third party or they kind of hear, I know this is out there, but I don't really know all the ins and outs of it.

So, having an AP being able to like, bring people on to, you know, provide information and education is great.

Yeah, awesome. And what keeps you joining and participating?

The changes. And honestly, I love being in connecting with people. The different networking events is great for me, and especially in my role and my job, being able to stay on top of, you know, who's doing what in the environmental field, just kind of really helps me.

I really, really love connecting with people and helping resolve complex issues, and which we know there's no project that has the same issues. So, yeah, I just, it really helps me stay abreast of that.

Awesome. And so your path in the environmental field was a little bit unconventional. I was looking at your LinkedIn and I didn't see any environmental degrees. So how did you get here?

I know, shocker, right? I mean, I can definitely tell you, I did not have anything in the wetland field industry mitigation banking that was never on my radar. I actually have a degree in psychology, and worked with at-risk kids for about 10 years.

So my foray into mitigation banking and the environmental field was something that just really kind of fell in my lap. I'll say fate. A role in it, so to speak.

I met a lady that I worked with that introduced me to the industry almost 20 years ago through somebody I knew at church, and really took it on as just a one day a week administrative kind of doing market research for investors looking to develop mitigation banks in the right spots.

So, that really was where the foundation. Started in my, yeah, career, yeah, that's great.

How do you feel your degree in psych and your experience, you know, with the children has influenced the way that you work?

Well, I can tell you this, and I always try to keep things in perspective. Wetlands have a place to stay at night, right?

And so if I ever get really stressed out of my job, I really kind of always come back to that, like, you know, I worked in a field that I had no place to put a kid for an evening.

And so it's, yeah, it really keeps things in a nice perspective, but it all kind of ties together in that it's a helping field and I can feel good about what we're doing.

Doing, whether it's kids or the environment, and helping save that is really just who I am to the core, right? And so either one, it just really has been just a really wonderful opportunity for me.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Let's dive into your work.

So you are in the mitigation banking industry. And I want to make sure, so we have a lot of people listening who are maybe. Students or aspiring professionals may not even really know what this means. So let's dive into what is mitigation banking industry, and then we can get into more of the nitty gritty.

It's so fun because I do a lot of traveling for work and. I get asked that question, I'm like, what is it that you do? You know, that's always the thing that's like, what's your elevator speech? I'm like, Oh, it's complicated.

Um, but it also makes it kind of fun to talk about.

So, mitigation banking is really just restoration projects on big pieces of land that are protected in perpetuity. And what they do is we enhance that site and Create what's called credit.

So it's a marketing system and credits are generated off that functional lift that's done from all the restoration. And then those credits can be sold to developers that could be like building a highway or a school, and to offset that, and it's contained within the same, what we call watershed. And so, that's really kind of the basis of what the industry is.

Yeah. And can you describe like some of the projects, some of the bank projects?

Yeah. So, it's kind of evolved over time. Early on, you know, the industry itself is pretty new. I mean, it really didn't get started until the mid-nineties.

So it's still an evolution process, but especially like in Florida, you see a lot on ranches, old ag lands, um, anywhere the sizes range depending on the state and the geography where you're in.

So some could be as small as 1020 acres. Others have thousands to 20,000 plus acres.

And it's basically been degraded sites that, again, have been restored. The wetlands and the indoor streams have been restored on that site.

So, it's places where you would think, oh, this would be a great place to hike, right? Or, you know, where we look and we're seeing such beautiful trees and just a great outdoor area, so.

Yeah, and then so what's, what is ecocredit marketing's role in all that?

Yeah, so we are the ones that help people find the mitigation. So we represent mitigation banks throughout the country and what broker credits basically.

So we're meeting with the different developers and the transport. Deportation agencies, local governments, and learning about their projects that may have some impacts that unavoidable impacts.

So we help them find the credits that they're going to need to do the offsets.

So awesome, yeah, what's your favorite part of doing this work?

Really the people. Honestly, truly, I have to tell you, well, there's two things, traveling, because I can tell you like, I have traveled in so many places, I probably never would have, if I didn't have this job.

And really, my favorite, favorite part is just talking to all the people.

And so, you know, the funny thing is too, Laura, is I learned pretty quickly. Everybody has a connection to Florida. It's, it's the craziest thing.

And I don't care if it's like in Montana or where I'm at. It's a 6 degrees of separation from Florida. I'm telling you, like my mom lived in Lakeland. My, you know, we have annual passes to Disney and they're like living in Illinois or something, you know, it's really great. It's really great.

Yeah, I've been to a couple of times. Conferences recently and I've had that conversation several times.

But it's a great, it's a great icebreaker, right? Like you're like, OK, cool. Like, hey, we're pals.

Yeah, well, then the next question is always where I'm from Florida too. Where? Because there's each part of Florida is so different.

It is. I know, I say it's like 3 countries in one, you know, one state.

Yeah, exactly.

I know. But I was born, raised, lived here my entire life. So, yeah, I feel like I know it pretty well.

Yeah. That's your favorite part. What's the most challenging part of doing this job?

Being able to help everybody, right? Because there's not a mitigation bank or there's not mitigation credits everywhere where there are needs.

And I am, I have a tendency to be a helper. And so that's been one of my bigger challenges is just. Navigating where to help people find the right mitigation to meet their needs.

And even in that, it's very rare that we don't find a solution. And that's kind of it's been nice about my role.

One of the things that I have done over my career is, I was president of the Association of Mitigation Bankers in Florida, right?

And really developing and learning who to talk to, whether it's legislators, regulators, and kind of linking up with all of that has really helped me figure out the right pieces and the right people to connect with to help solve those problems and challenges.

So, OK, so at what point would you need a legislator to be involved in a project?

So, well, sometimes it's when we are struggling to get credits released in time, or sometimes it's when We're having challenges getting credits on board and it may not be just for one project, it could be more of the universal issue where there's deficiencies in, in certain watersheds, right?

And how can we help deliver what these developer needs to make these projects move forward.

But we also want to make sure that the offsets. Are correct and create that no net loss.

We've worked on a lot of legislation to kind of open up some opportunities to create mitigation and restoration projects that does help relieve the constraints in certain geographies. So, um, yeah.

So is the work done before or after someone comes to you?

So if you have the mitigation bank, does the property sit there, let's say degraded until someone needs to restore it to get the credits, or is it already, we're looking for something that has already been done that hasn't been claimed yet, or how does that work?

Yeah, so with mitigation banks, which makes them a little different than just a true restoration project, is that. All the work is done in what we're calling what we say in advance of impact.

So like we cannot get our first credit release until we put a conservation easement over it or put financial assurance, and then we have to build, we have to do the restoration and stuff like that before we can actually get our credits to provide to these, these impact projects.

So yeah, so typically it's considered these are like the mitigations done. In advance of the impacts.

OK, that makes sense.

And so if someone wants to get into this type of work, who works in this field and what kind of skills should they be looking to develop?

Are recognized. It is a wide and varied skill set, quite honestly, I work all the time with attorneys, with field biologists, with geologists, with people that, that know GIS very well.

Um, there's lots of mapping that has to be done. Lots, there's a lot of technical aspects to it. So I work a lot with biologists. There's a lot of involvement with species too. A lot of them have engineering degrees.

Like I said, it's really varied and wide. And hello, I'm going to have a degree in psychology, and I still work.

So, yeah, yeah, I don't, I think the sky's the limit, quite honestly. And I think it's really where your passion's at. I think everybody that works in this field is very passionate about conservation. And that's really the underlying, to me would be the underlying theme, you know.

Yeah. And as the You know, been in leadership roles with the Florida Association of Mitigation Bankers for so long, we talked about NAP and I'm sure it's kind of similar, but for that group, I mean, how many people work in mitigation banking? How big is this field?

That is a very good question. I don't know that I have the exact number, but I would say it's grown to 1,000s, for sure, 1000s.

It's become quite a heavy, like green and what we call green investment, and so we have I would say thousands that work in the mitigation banking industry.

Yeah, how is, I mean, do you get an indication of that through the association? Like how has the membership grown or?

Oh, for sure. So, you know, I started really sitting, I sat on the board in 2017 is when I first kind of came on and I would say like really started paying attention to the industry and getting engaged.

And I'll just give a good example. Of how, how much it's grown.

So, one of the things that I've put together is a workshop every year that is strictly just for mitigation banking industry in Florida, because it is a pretty robust industry comparative to most of the states.

We have over 140 mitigation banks projects alone. So, it's a pretty thriving industry.

So, having that workshop, we have like the regulators and pretty much anybody involved in mitigation banking in the state.

When I first started putting that on, I think the first time I put it on was in 2019. We probably had maybe 50-ish people show up. And that would be like people from the core and different regulatory agencies.

Now we have. I think last year we were right at 140, 150.

I mean, we, we, yeah, we're constantly having to change venues just because it grows so much. And I think also because, you know, it was so confined earlier, but now it's more, it's more focused, like we have legislators that actually come and it's become more well rounded, I would say.

Yeah. So it's definitely, I would say double, tripled in size, for sure, just in the last couple of years, so.

Yeah, you um also directly work with planning the conference?

Oh, yes, I've done it all myself with some help with other members, but yeah, I have. It's quite an undertaking. It's nobody's ever done it. It's, yeah, well, what, what are the keys to success, to planning a conference like that?

Never being afraid to ask. The answer is always no unless you ask. Knowing who the right people to ask and get engaged is very, very helpful.

Making sure that you know how to navigate the Florida hurricane season. I've learned that lesson too hard, I have to say one year.

Um, making sure that everybody that we're providing relevant topics to me is probably the most important aspect.

Putting the agenda together is truly, if I say stressful, it's probably the most stressful because I want to make sure we're not doing, repeating the same thing every year, but we also want to make sure we're providing relevant topics that people are going to be interested in and want to come.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, awesome.

Well, congrats on growing that so much, and it is a cool field. I mean, yeah, it's like the ideal situation is to not destroy the wetland to begin with or the habitat, and then providing some other alternative and having people who care to pick the right places and make sure that they're really, you know, credit.

How do you do that? So credit for credit. I know there's been some. Discussion and debate about whether this is the right thing to do and you know there's varying levels of agreeance on that but um yeah, so how do you go about ensuring that you know we we're plowing through a pristine wetland and then What are we actually putting back in return?

Sure, yeah, so that it's, again, what we call that no net loss. What gets impacted is like or better, right?

Um, which to me, I think the critical element of that is that functional assessment that's done on both sides, right?

The best way I can compare it to is what we're using the functional assessment. That we use in Florida, right? You have the same method that's used on that impact project is used on our mitigation bank projects, right?

So you have a functional loss for that impact, but you have a functional gain that would measure the same, right?

So whatever that functional loss is on that impact project is the exact number of credits that have to be purchased at. A bank within that same watershed.

And it's the same concept that's kind of carried in other in banking just like throughout the US too. It's just, yeah, yeah, it depends on the methodology, but yeah, it's the same concept.

Yeah, and then how long does that apply? So then I know some of the other workers just monitoring. Is there a year amount tied to that where you mean that on the mitigation bank?

yep. So it usually mitigation banks take between 5 to 7 years to construct and then to your point, then there's a. Annual maintenance and monitoring that occurs.

And like I said, it's up to 7 to 10, it just depends, 7, 10 years max.

And then what happens is it goes into long term, what we call long term management, and somebody still will take that over.

And that's kind of the difference between like what you see on, um, permit responsible mitigation with mitigation banks, it's forever and ever and ever.

Like that's one of our financial assurances is it pays for that long term maintenance and monitoring.

So. In year 2070, somebody's still going to be in all these mitigation bank projects, making sure that it's still maintained at that high level of success, right?

Because it's all highly regulated. The core and state agencies are always keeping an eye on those things. The reports still have to be done. It's always going to be monitored.

OK, yeah.

Well, this is a perfect time for our segment called #t Field Notes where we talk to our guests about memorable moments doing the work in the field.

We ask listeners to send their funny, scary, and awkward field stories with us so we can read them on future episodes to info@environmentalprofessionalsradio.com or there's a form on the website.

So, Kae, you must have stories from being in the field, especially in Florida. So I'll let you choose, or I can give you a prompt for something that we mentioned earlier.

We're gonna just do a draw and you can give me a prompt.

OK. There is one about an airport director that had to purchase nutri credits.

Yes, so funny story. So we don't have this right now in Florida, but in other states such as North Carolina, Virginia, there's nutrient credits that are traded just like wetlands and streams.

And in Virginia, it's phosphorus credits that have to be purchased. And so part of what we do is go and meet with. Different impactors. Again, talking about projects, stuff like that.

And we went to an airport director and bless his heart, sweetest man in the world.

He didn't understand really what was he buying. He's like, I don't really even understand what I bought buying these phosphorus.

He's like, Am I going to take you up on the airplane and we're going to sprinkle like phosphorus over the field? Is that how it's offset?

And yeah, I mean, it's pretty funny.

And I've even had people talk to me like, hey, so when I buy a credit, do you go onto the bank site and like carve off a piece and like get a little steak, like you get a little plaque.

I'm like, I love that concept.

Yeah, like, yeah, that sounds like a great concept, but that would be a lot, right? Because we're, we're selling off like little baby tiny teeny tiny slivers. So I'm like, that's a lot of work.

Um, but I think it points really to the fact that it's like, there's a lot of educationing that's got to be done, you know, as, you know, we're what, 30+ years in, and we're, there's still a lot of work to be done, a lot of education to be done, which that's all fine and good, and we can get some few laughs out of it too, you know.

Yeah, well, that brings up another good question, I think, is, how do you stay on top of the different regulations in the different states that you have. Mitigation banks.

It's talking to the regulators, talking to project managers. I think one of the keys to success is lots and lots of communication in this field.

Again, when you're in the environmental field, you know, it is constantly changing. We are built on regulation, which means that's all tied to politics and With the new administration, things change, even on the state side of things, right?

And legislation can be introduced at any time.

So truly to me, like you, again, I go back to why it's critical to stay engaged with your local associations, because they're going to be the ones to know before anybody else, really and truly.

It's much easier to disperse information to one unit, than try to individually. go out and make sure, oh, I've covered all my bases.

So really, I think if I were to nail one thing, it's got to be communication with the right people.

Right? And then there's no one doing like cross state mitigation, are they? Like you have to, if you know, no, and that's a very funny.

That's so funny you bring that up. I actually, so I have a mitigation bank in the panhandle, which you're, you know, what sort of looks like, right?

And I actually have had several projects that are just over like the Florida, Georgia line. They have zero options, like for mitigation bank, and it's like a rule like they can't do the mitigation on site, like that makes no sense.

And it is not like, as it stands right now, no, there is no mitigation. I don't care where you're at, like no mitigation can occur across state lines. Because apparently wetlands know the state boundary lines.

I, who knew that, right?

I, I, I wish. I find that kind of funny, right? Like, OK.

No, that's a good point, because I was thinking more like, I can't buy, you know, if I can't find this 1 to 1 here in Florida, maybe I could find it in California.

But I didn't really think about even that, like state lines, like, I can't even do it like the neighbor neighborhood next door.

No, yeah, I mean, you could walk.

And sometimes it's so funny because they're, it's very strict and it's very watershed based, which we.

Want, right? Like we want it to, the mitigation to occur as close to the impact as possible. That's the whole goal and that no net loss.

So you don't even see impacts in Miami, and it even in Orlando, like we can't mitigate it in Orlando, necessarily, right? Like that. We want to keep it as close to the impact as possible, that mitigation.

So certainly not cross state.

Although, perhaps one day, I don't know, especially where it makes sense to your point, right? But I don't see us doing like, you know.

Anything crazy like California to Florida.

So yeah, it does make it very interesting for sure.

And then you mentioned, um, you know, Florida doesn't do nutrient credits. Are there other things that some states do and some don't?

Yeah, you see a lot of, and I will put a plug in for Florida because they have just passed water quality enhancement areas.

So we are on the track for nutrient credits, hopefully this year, stormwater rules, yes.

But yeah, we see a lot of like variety and species really. And conservation banks.

So that's kind of another subset of, of mitigation banking is conservation banking, and it's based on, you know, federally endangered species.

So in Florida, we have sand skinks. I don't know if you're familiar with those, Laura, but the little legless lizards. The only place in the whole entire world where we have them.

Panthers, obviously has, we've had conservation banks with panthers.

You're not going to see that.

And you don't really see conservation banks too much. California is number 1, by far. I think they have like probably triple what we have in Florida and Florida's #2 in conservation banking.

But I do see a trend where we're gonna start seeing a whole lot more in different biodiversity markets.

It's not gonna just be wetland or stream or even nutrient credits or species credits. It's gonna start expanding even more beyond that.

We're starting to see some things even with specific to saltwater and different biodiversities like that.

So, yeah, I mean, each state kind of has its own method, I would say.

And I mean, there's even some states that you just really don't see a whole lot of mitigation at all. Um, they're still kind of years behind the times, so it's going to take a while for it to kind of catch up.

Yeah, well, there's always early adopters, right? And then those that wait and see and catch up later, for sure, that's, yeah, look at, look at hello. Welcome to our world now.

Yeah.

Um, all right, well, we like to talk to people about their hobbies and things before we end the show. So you love to travel, you've been to 46 states. Do you have a favorite?

I do. And it's not Hawaii or Alaska, although they're nice.

Um, honestly loved Utah.

Utah is probably, yeah, I mean, and it's so different than Florida, so there's that. But yeah, I loved, loved Utah, and all the national parks that they have there, just very pretty, for sure.

Yeah, that's a good choice. I was just there a few weeks ago for the ESA Ecological Society of America, a great conference and I enjoyed.

I've been through Salt Lake and I've been there skiing, but I've never really been in the summer. It was hot.

But yeah, I got to kind of see Salt Lake City a little bit and it was cool.

I have to say, if you don't mind me interjecting, there's one place that I traveled for work that I think is probably my favorite, and that's Boise, Idaho.

Yes. If you have never, like, and I think it's because I had like these low expectations, because I, I remember it was like our national conference was in, and I saw I was in Boise I'm like, Idaho, like potatoes, really? Like, what is there?

And then I go and it is.

So gorgeous. Like you have mountains in the background, streams running through the downtown area, and everybody's so nice and so much to do and so many great restaurants to eat at.

I was just like, uh, how do we not know about this little treasure?

Yeah, I had that similar experience when I went to Kansas City. I was like, What? How is this so cool.

Right? I think I find that too, like, you know, people talk all, you, like you hear about all these great, like, oh, New York City and all these, and then you find these little treasures and little nuggets.

You're like, I am digging this.

Like, but I think part of it too, because we have like lower expectations about it too, you know.

No offense, cities.

No, we love you all.

Awesome. Well, we are running out of time. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before I let you go?

Well, if I can put a plug into our FA&B workshop, I would so love to do that.

We're holding it October 8th and 9th, and the beautiful historic St. Augustine, Florida.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's in Vilano Beach, Florida Association of Mitigation Bankers. It is a mitigation banking focused workshop.

Would love to have everybody show up.

Watermitigationbanking.org is the website and you can learn more about it there.

We're going to do our best not to have a hurricane at that time.

So.

Yeah, awesome. And finally, where can people get in touch with you?

Well, uh, on LinkedIn, it's Kae Hovater, not hard, other than spelling my name correctly, K-A-E.

And then EcoCredit Marketing, my website directly has a link to my email if you want to check that out there, ecocreditmarketing.com.

Awesome. Thanks for joining us today, Kae, and I hope to talk to you again soon.

Yes, I loved it. Absolutely.

That's our show. Thank you, Kae, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday.

Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.

Bye.

See you.