Leading Colorado’s Progressive Resurgence, National Audubon Society, and Building Successful Teams with Alice Madden

Laura and Nic sit down with Alice Madden, Senior Director of Climate Strategies at the National Audubon Society, to talk about Colorado’s clean energy transformation, what it takes to lead progressive policy change, and how strong teams help turn big environmental goals into action. Along the way, Alice shares candid career advice on mentorship, fundraising, public service, and building a meaningful path in climate and conservation work.

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

Help us continue to create great content! If you’d like to sponsor a future episode hit the support podcast button or visit www.environmentalprofessionalsradio.com/sponsor-form 

Please be sure to ✔️subscribe, ⭐rate and ✍review. 

This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Alice Madden at https://www.linkedin.com/in/alice-madden-3868112b/

Guest Bio:
Alice Madden is the Senior Director of Climate Strategies for the National Audubon Society where she oversees efforts to achieve the organization’s strategic goal of influencing the responsible clean energy transition to abate climate change. An innovative changemaker, Alice brings several decades of success in developing and implementing groundbreaking policies in myriad areas, including clean energy, sustainability, environmental justice, land/water conservation, and climate action. 

Alice practiced law for a decade before serving in the Colorado House of Representatives. She is considered the architect of the 2004 progressive resurgence and as Majority Leader, Alice led the passage of an historic agenda – including implementing the means to grow a sweeping clean energy economy. She went on to become Gov. Bill Ritter’s Climate Change Advisor and was a Climate Fellow at the Center for American Progress in DC. She then held the Timothy E. Wirth Chair in Sustainable Development at the University of Colorado’s School of Public Affairs. In 2013, she accepted a high-level appointment in the Obama administration at the U.S. Department of Energy, serving as the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of Intergovernmental and External Affairs. Alice led the prestigious Getches-Wilkinson Center for Natural Resources, Energy & the Environment at University of Colorado School of Law. Just prior to joining Audubon, Alice served as Greenpeace USA’s first Policy & Political Director. 

Alice has always believed in giving back to her community and has served on multiple non-profit boards. In everything she does, Alice incorporates efforts to create broad collaborations, and to ensure equitable and inclusive support of women and historically under-represented populations.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, we finally talk about sports, maybe once and only. It did take a miracle championship from the New York Knicks to do it. Doesn't matter. It's been amazing and I'm excited for this team and their future. We interview Alice Madden about leading Colorado's progressive resurgence, National Audubon Society, and building successful teams. And finally, in light of our conversation about the National Audubon Society, here are some things you might not know about their namesake, John Audubon. Born in Haiti, he is known for his famous work Birds of America, but also he's credited with the first bird banding experiment where he captured birds, tied yarn around their legs, and monitored whether they came back to the same nest each year. He was also a notorious prankster, once inviting a rival naturalist to his museum and proudly showing off a display to have a fake absurd species he had quote unquote discovered, including a fictional fish with a tongue like sandpaper, just to see if the scientists would believe him. I love that. Yeah, he sounds fun. Hit that music.

Environmental Professionals Radio comes to the ESRI User Conference. Join this lively live podcast featuring voices from the Nature Conservancy, ESRI and the Society for Conservation GIS. We'll dive into digital twins, explore how mapping helps translate science into spatial insight, and discuss how conservation professionals can keep pace with an ever evolving technological landscape. Expect sharp insights, practical takeaways, and plenty of laughs from EPR hosts, Laura and Nic, along the way.

We rely on our listeners and our sponsors to bring you a new episode of Environmental Professionals Radio each and every week. With over 250 episodes and the show being in the top 5% of all podcasts, there's never been a better time for your company to showcase its work through a sponsorship to reach our highly engaged community of environmental professionals. Find out more on the sponsor page at www.environmentalprofessionalsradio.com.

Let's get to our segment.

Yeah, so I don't know what a box score is, but I watched, I watched the series, obviously. Every game you could see, right? Like the Knicks would come up, uh, the Knicks would get blown out in the beginning, and then find a way to chip back and chip away at the lead, and some of that is straight up experience, right? And, uh, some of it's, you know, nerves of a new team and stuff like that, but Yeah, like, I think I saw an interview where Brunson was saying, like, you know, the other teams, they're asking him, you know, why do you, why do you think this happens? He's like, I don't know, they show up at 8:30, we show up at 9.

Yeah, yeah, and it, there really is something to like energy management, and I think that was kind of what we saw in the series, like the, the Knicks kind of were the same consistent energy output the whole time, and the Spurs came out on fire, and almost every game, they're just like really pushing tempo and pace, getting really high on their emotion, and then like that wears off, and you saw it in like 3 of the 4 games, like it, it wore off to the point where they had nothing at the end. And like, you know, their, their 2nd quarter and 4th quarter plus minus, right, the, uh, amount of points each team scored. I'm realizing I'm having to explain it, um, the Knicks blew them out of the water. It wasn't even close. So, so in at the end of every half, the Knicks still had energy and the Spurs were floundering, and that happened last night too. It was the same thing. They're up by 16 halfway through the second quarter. And they end up getting, they're only up by 5 at the end of the second quarter, and really it's a miracle it was 5, it should have been 3. So like they just had a lucky shot going in and the same thing happened, and you can look at the, so when you look at the box score, it tells you all the stats, right? All the stats of the game, you can look at the stats for like each quarter, and the two bad quarters for San Antonio are the 2nd and the 4th. Those are the two worst quarters they had. And it's like that for most of the games. They had one game where they kind of sort that out with the ref's help. So I'm just saying.

Um, those refs did seem to be playing a little bit of favorites.

Yeah, they, yeah, I didn't realize you could have a, a sixth defender in basketball, but it is the refs in this case, um, kind of unbelievably like they basically were fouling, calling fouls on Carl Anthony Towns to get him out of the game, which is just kind of unbelievable. They would call so many like minor fouls on him and they're not calling on other people. And you know, obviously the amount of actual flagrant fouls that Wimby has had is, is enough to get sus.

Oh yeah, yes, the definition of flagrant was definitely all over the map during the series. But my favorite part, my favorite part is like they were like the one where he basically was in Brunson's shooting landing zone. Um, which he really sticks his foot out and then looks down to make sure his foot is where Brunson's is, which is pretty bad. It's a pretty bad thing to do. It's, it's really dirty. And one of the announcers was like, yeah, after the game said, you know, he would have been suspended for game 6 if they'd had it. And he goes, well, he can sit it, he can stay at home for game 6. That's fine with me cause it's over. You know, so that's kind of fun. I love that they kind of overcame that.

Speaking of that, being in New York City for game 5 was just awesome. Like, the minute it was over, the fireworks started, yeah, you know, the city's almost just vibrating from underneath and Seeing a community of people. I mean, I wanted to move here because of how diverse it is. There is a really good sense of community here, you know, and there's always like, I'm reading the comments on some of these posts, and there's always the naysayers, but it's one out of every 20 persons. It's like, oh, but somebody got beat up by the Spurs, and of course that sucks. But you know, people drink at these parties and things. Yeah, of course. That's one of the reasons I actually don't like sports in general, is the fans. I don't, I don't like to go and sit and watch, you know, two people who are just couldn't ever play this sport to begin with themselves. And then die hard accusing the other person of being an awful person because of the affiliated with, you know.

Yeah, there is a reason, you know, a fan is, is of, uh, you know, fanatic, that's the short, short term of it, and I think fanatics in any way are bad, and I think that's also a problem I had. There is something absolutely beautiful to being in a place where everyone's cheering for the same thing, and like my one of my favorite sports memories, it was the 18-0 New England Patriots losing to the Giants. Again, we're talking New York here. I was in a bar with like a lot of my uh grad school friends. We were all watching that and and and I mean this is a bar with hundreds of people in it and everyone is rooting for the Giants and the amount of joy that that brought was just you can't really put a pulse on it. It's unbelievable, truly unbelievable, and uh it was super fun and I can imagine like the. What they're calling the hand of God game. So game 4 of this series, you know, because I still, I, I've watched that play like 100 times. It is crazy that it happened. The whole sequence at the end of that had to line up perfectly, yeah, and it's just like they should, the Spurs should have won that game hands down. There shouldn't have been, there should have been no way that happened, but. Here we are, you know, that's why you keep playing. You keep fighting and keep going.

Exactly, yeah, I, same thing. I like the World Cup, which of course is now underway, and because when I lived in Ireland, we would go to the bar and there's one television, not 50. One and everyone in that bar is watching the same team, same game, cheering, rooting for the same, and it's a totally different vibe than what I was used to, where there's, you know, the opposing team fans in one place and they're just arguing and fighting the whole time. Terrible.

Yeah. And truthfully, like I had a, I had a terrible experience going to, I went to one, I went to one NFL game, Steelers, Ravens, very big rivalry, and it was just awful. Like everyone was so mean and it's so cruel to each other and, and just a. A drunken, you know, disappointing way. It was really bad.

It was, oh my gosh, my grandpa used to take us to the Green Bay Packers and Buccaneers games. Those were knockdown drag outs, just horrible fans.

Yeah, yeah, and it can't contained the way you see the sport, and that's, that's. So it is fun to be in spaces though where you can see good things and it's like. You know, this is like, this this championship, it, it's teamwork, it's hard work, you know, I think if you look at the series as a whole, it's kind of cool to see like different people on the Knicks had different games where they were great, you know, and Jalen Brunson being the smallest guy out there, having the best possible game at the end to close it out. It's super fun. That's like a great story, you know, and I think people can relate to that across the board, not just in New York. And so I think, honestly, like the country is kind of, was kind of rooting for the Knicks, and so it's cool to see that come through.

Oh yeah, there was like half of the stadium was Knicks fans. I think that, you know, if I had one request, it would be for, in general, the United States to get better songs. Better anthems for our sports teams, sports teams, yeah, yeah, I was in Madrid when they won the World Cup 2009, I think. It wasn't in Madrid that they won, but it was an insane. I mean, it was what's happening here in New York, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, in Madrid. It was amazing, yeah, and oh yeah, and they have like all the songs for like the anthems are so they're so great.

They really are, and that's so true, like all the chants they have are awesome and we're like, let's go Knicks, you know, that's what we've got so boring and they're they're, they have full on songs, yeah.

Yeah, that part's pretty funny. But I, I have to give a quick shout out to my brother too, because every time he hears the, the term Nic, whatever it is, he puts his name in instead. So I told him, did you see the Knicks game? He's like, I saw the Jakes, you know, so.

Really cracks me up. So I don't know. I just can't believe it. Look at this having a sports conference. This is the most sports talk I've ever had in my entire life. So I think, um, you know, let's get to that interview before this becomes a thing.

Welcome back to EPR. Today we're joined by Alice Madden, senior director of climate strategies for the National Audubon Society. Throughout her varied career, Alice has strived to be a transitional change agent, and we'll also say that the National Audubon is a nonpartisan. Organization and she is here to share her experiences and opinions. So welcome, Alice. Thanks for having me. We're really excited for the conversation.

We are super excited to have you. I've been drooling over your background and, and all of all the things that you've accomplished. And so I don't even know where to start, but we usually start right at the beginning, which is, you tell us how you got into environmental, what sparked your interest in doing this as your work.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny in some way. Was, it goes back to Richard Nixon. So I might as well start way in the way, way back. I'm the youngest of 5, big family, big age spread. And, and my two oldest brother-in-laws were at risk of being drafted to Vietnam. My parents did not like Richard Nixon. And I, you know, was very aware, dinner conversation was, you know, always about what was happening. We're in Vietnam, Watergate. And I realized at a very young age that when good people don't get involved in politics, the bad people take over. That was like an 11 year old thinking that. So, yeah, I always thought I would run for office. And we can get into this a little bit later, but when I had children, I literally woke up one night and thought, I am not doing enough to save the planet. And then augmenting my legal. Career, I started volunteering on a land trust, got involved with my local county party politics, started working with the uh Women's Bar Association on domestic violence issues. Just, even though I was really busy and had kids, I thought I wanna do more on the side that really fills my passion.

Yes. Looking at your history, it feels like you always just said, well, I'm really busy, but I'm gonna do this other stuff too. You served as majority leader for the Colorado House of Representatives and are considered the architect of Colorado's 2004 progressive resurgence. Tell us more about those achievements.

Yeah, that was, I mean, I was elected and served in the minority. Colorado back then was pure red. People kind of forget that. It was across the board held by Republicans, and I was sort of in shock. Every day I would go to work, and I mean, no, now I miss those type of Republicans, but God, I can't believe these are the people who were in charge and Like back then mammograms were considered optional, you know, I mean, just, you know, things were just so different, and I was very naive and that was lucky because I thought, well, we should be able to take over the house, um, and I was. I was able to tell at that time, we had redistricting kick in and that had gone in the favor of the Democrats, and we had term limits kick in for the first time. So there was an opportunity. So, me and a couple of people, we both, we, um, wrote kind of a business plan that we called the Drive for 5. We needed 5 seats, but it also included, you know, what the vision was for Colorado, like what could happen if you had a progressive minority, particularly for our lands and our water and our, the western way of life, which I was very committed to protecting. And lo and behold, I was able to convince a very wealthy woman to help support us. And that brought then the AFL-CIO on board, and a couple other, you know, wealthy people. And all eyes were on the Senate. They needed 1 seat. House needed 5, hadn't happened in 40 years. It was a very small circle of believers. The, the day of the election, the Republicans were fighting who was gonna be Speaker. They had no idea. So, um, it was a pretty amazing victory. It was a shock. There was a book written about, you know, how, how we did it, and I can talk a little bit more about that because it wasn't rocket science. But again, in my naivete, I, I asked all the, you know, Democratic friends, labor, teachers, enviros, Planned Parenthood folks, like, do you guys talk to me? Each other, do you plan, like when you do radio ads, and no one was talking to each other. So, we created some systems of communications and ways to share polling. Like, you do your radio ad this week, we'll follow up the next week instead of 5 pieces of mail hitting on one day. Maybe we plan it differently. So, we, we leveraged the money that was out there, and I had an amazing team around me. I knew nothing about this going in. And if I had, I would never have done it. Like, you know, sure, I just, I joked, I might as well have had like pigtails, you know, marching into some meeting, but, um, it all worked out and I was elected by my peers to be majority leader.

That's awesome. I love that, you know, you recognize communication as one of the opportunities in there. And during this time, is this also when you started pushing for clean energy?

Yeah, so those 1st 2 years as majority leader, Bill Owens was still governor. He was a Republican and originally from Texas, oil and gas guy. The state was still run by oil and gas interests. They, it was, you know, frankly, fox guarding the henhouse. They were in charge of their own commissions, and so, although he was governor, he wasn't gonna let much change. He could veto things. We Put together a series of bills and really raised up, I really enjoyed raising up other people's voices in my caucus cause I was from a pretty easy district to get reelected. So we would help others who needed a public profile and, you know, put them in front of reporters and talk about our Clean energy strategies and we set the stage for when Bill Ritter was elected 2 years later and I think over the 1st 2 years of Bill's governorship, we passed like 56 bills around clean energy and environment laws. I mean, it was. A total shift. We went from lagging the country to leading it. And that was really, you know, big thanks to Bill and working with the legislature. And he was a former prosecutor. His first TV ad was out in a wind farm. I mean, he was, he was committed to clean energy. So, and then he invited me to be his climate advisor after I served out my term in the House. And I, I wasn't interested in going to the Senate. So that was a really great transition for me.

Oh, that's fantastic. You also during all of this, I was looking at your LinkedIn, you've, you've raised a lot of money. Like, so my question on that is, you know, congratulations, but also share some advice for others who, you know, this is right, especially now, it's such a difficult time to get funds to have advice for people.

I would say hearts and minds. It's really as simple as giving that vision of like what your money will do. And then explain exactly how we can get there. So, I literally had this business plan, as I mentioned before, and I remember pitching to, it's, it's no secret, a woman named Pat Stryker lives in Fort Collins, and I was so nervous. I was in the bathroom and I opened up the window, and I'm sweating, and I look outside, and she pulls up in a minivan, and I can see like a Baby, you know, carrier in the front seat. It's like, she has flip flops on and I walked and it's like, oh, I can talk to this woman. And we had a great conversation. I was lucky, again, to get her support early on because that legitimized the whole effort of the majority project for the house.

Yeah, and I have to know, like, your first day after the election had gone completely differently. Had to be epic. I don't know. Was it like, what did I get myself into? Was it like, I mean, what was the tenor of it?

Here's a story for parents, you know, I had, while I was in office, I had two little kids and my husband traveled a lot overseas, so I was like the primary caretaker a lot of times. So, when, you know, the day after, and it was the day I was elected majority leader, my husband kept calling me, and I, you know, I could feel my phone vibrating and I'm not answering, I'm not answering. And literally the election majority leader, I'm, you know, we're all, I'm so ecstatic, and, you know, colleagues, everyone's still blown away, hungover. I finally read the text. He's like, Everything's OK, but we're at the emergency room with our youngest son. So that was my first day. It's like such a classic. And yeah, I still have a family, and they don't care. Like, you know, I would get home from some amazing day and like, what's for dinner? I need help with my homework. So.

Yeah, hurry up, Mom. Let's go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I wouldn't have traded for the world to me because it keeps you so grounded and, um, yeah, you have to have a, a group of people who are real around you and real friends and family and because politics can be a little weird.

Yeah, that's a very fair statement for it. But like it had to be some challenges too. Like even if you do have pass all those things, you do have all of this great legislation come, go from being lagging to leading. Um, what were the challenges about that?

I relied on, you know, again we had some amazing people and it's so cool because a lot of these people who were, you know, I mean this is a while ago, this is 2004, 2005, you know, these people are now leading organizations, but we had this amazing team of people who Put together those 56 bills I was talking about. And really creative press and comms people, really smart policy people, really, uh, smart young environmental lobbyists who had not had any victories at that legislature before. So everyone's so primed and so pumped to make things happen. So, I have to say, I was surrounded by a team of amazingly enthusiastic, smart people. Not that it wasn't challenging. It was, the other weirder thing about it was just leading in a more magnanimous way. Uh, we had been sort of, frankly, trodden upon, like, silly things like, we wouldn't know what was going to be on the calendar. So, we tried to be the leaders we wanted to be. We were very transparent about what we would do the next day, and, you know, print a calendar and, and just, you know, treated the other party like we would have liked to have been treated. People always ask me, like, what bills are important. I remember helping people who would call my office and say, I thought you might help me. My representatives never returned my call, but my kid needs bone marrow transplant. That kind of thing, I will never forget, trying to help someone whose own representative never even bothered to call them back. And getting a phone call saying, I heard you help people, it makes me almost cry. It's just that, that was the stuff you don't really hear about when politicians talk. They talk about. The bills, but you know, helping someone through the maze of government and bureaucracy or, or fighting against an insurance company, that was, you know, those are some of the things I'm proudest of.

Yeah, it's, it's earth shaking in a way, you know, it's, it's moving mountains and sometimes all it takes is. Listening, sometimes I feel like we've forgotten that, right? It's really easy to kind of lose sense of that and I think about energy and I think about like the way that we use energy, the way we've changed the way we have renewables as part of the energy process, but we also have challenges to that. It's never a straight line. It's always a little forward, a little back, a little forward, a little back, um, so your experience in working with Bill Rutter's climate change, you know, initiatives and how has that kind of influenced the way you see policy now?

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, we're in this appearance of, you know, going backwards, right? And for those of us who work in climate change, it can be a very depressing time. I think if you work in climate change, you have to be an optimist or you would not get out of bed in the morning. Um, so I truly do think, I mean, the amazing thing is, is that solar is the cheapest form of energy right now. Solar and battery are the way to go. So even though there's this artificial raising up of oil and gas. Solar wind batteries are going to be the future. The rest of the world is moving forward on that. We're really doing a disservice to, you know, American companies, our own business people, our own workers by doing this stupid thing, but that's where we are right now. I don't think it'll last because it is unsupportable. Why would you put millions more into a coal plant that's falling apart? Out of like personal vengeance because that's what's driving this policy, so I try to look past that and yeah, we're in a moment of, you know, a frozen or a moment of stepping back, but I, I know that the market is leaning toward clean energy because that will break, you know, offshore wind, a perfect example. Offshore wind is a game changer. And once we do get it going, which we will, we will make vast improvements in our emissions, etc. and so I remain optimistic, although, gosh, it is really hard to do with that right now.

Yeah, but it's a long view. I think about like the eras that we were in, you know, we're talking about like when A lot of military bases were built in the 40s, right? There were no environmental laws, and it's kind of wild to think about sometimes we forget that there still are some and they still do, they do have some work that they do. I know we could probably talk to you about this all day long, but I do want to shift a little bit to what you're doing now. So, you know, you're working for the National Audubon Society, which I think most people in the environmental space know exactly what that is, but give us a little bit of how you got there and what you're doing for the National Audubon Society.

Yeah, I've been lucky in my career to be in places where I could, not always, but sometimes start something new, like the majority leader position, you know, something that hadn't happened in 40 years, like a whole new clean slate. I was one of the first directors of the Goetches Wilkinson Center and Environmental Law Center at CU. So I love being able to, you know, start and get programs going. Audubon, they've been doing this for several years, but they've been working with clean energy and transmission developers because climate. Change is the biggest single threat to birds, and they've been able to really tie the nexus between deploying clean energy and saving birds. You know, that nexus is real. So, you know, and climate action is conservation. And that really appealed to me, because, especially right now, it, it's a very, bit of a motto of getting to yes. You know, Audubon is not a litigious organization necessarily at all. All, you know, it's, it's a little different vein for environmental conservation organization, you know, it, it's run, you know, by scientists and data analysis, and so I love, I've always loved working with big-brained people who think a little differently than I do, and, um, helping getting that amazing stuff out into the real world. And I've been able to, you know, help grow, you know, the, the scope of work and the ecosystem of work we do. So we're now doing a lot more. State policy work, um, they've had an amazing federal group for, for forever, as you can imagine, you know, really well, strong lobbying on, you know, lands issues and various land protection conservation efforts. So the clean energy transmission stuff is a little newer, so it's been really fun. I have amazing colleagues. Once again, I'm lucky to be surrounded by brilliant people who know how to do their jobs and love their jobs. We have such a great team. And it is, it's about forward motion, getting shovels on the ground, building renewables, building the transmission needed to get them on board.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds really great, and it's, it's got to be a lot of coordination, a lot of delegation, and, you know, something we've talked about on the show. When you are in a leadership role like that, you cannot do everything. You've talked about your team a couple of times. How do you develop a good team and how do you manage one that needs maybe a little more guidance than another would?

Yeah, I've had to fire a couple of people in the past, and I've had to have come to your personal savior meeting with a couple of people. And, um, luckily those, the latter group that, that all worked and because, you know, sometimes people just need to hear it, maybe they don't know, um, and, uh, matter of fact, we just, you know, kind of did evaluations and stuff, and it's, it's really wonderful, and I'm, you know, I've been working for decades, but I still love, you know, getting the correction I. Need from someone are saying, you know, think about this or that. So, I've been lucky to have been mentored in my past, and I've been really lucky to mentor a lot of younger people who I've, who are now, like I said before, running organizations. So, but my team, you know, if, if you get to that point, it's really nice to be able to trust your team and say, Let's talk once a week. I've onboarded a couple of people, so, of course, at the beginning, it's really intense. Make sure, you know, they have the tools they need to succeed. But when someone's up and running, I really do like to just give them their space to make things happen, but stay in touch. But, like, questions, any time of the day, you know, ask me questions. And that seems to have worked over the years. I am still friends with all my staff from the house days. Like, we were war buddies. So, we, we're very close friends. So, so I, I view, I mean, think how much time you spend in your job. So, I want to provide an environment that's fun. And where you feel respected and that you look forward to every morning, especially in Zoom world, it's like, you know, take a little time to begin the meeting to catch up, you know, see how people are doing, check into the human being that you're working with, um, but I've always felt like, you know, I'm surrounded by professionals who, who know how to do their jobs, and if they don't, how can I help them, you know, get better, and then let them do, let them do their thing, um, and I love being that umbrella organizer. That's, that's always been a good space for me.

Yeah, I mean, it's, I'm the same way. I think it's, it's absolutely fun to be, I, I, I guess the term would be like developer, right? You're, you're kind of, you know how things work well, you see where people's growth potential is, and you can help people get there, and it's super fun, yeah, yeah, or a catalyst. I remember someone using that word. I really love that word, yeah, yeah, putting the right people together to make some amazing chemical reaction, yeah. No, I love that. I'm gonna totally steal it from you.

Yeah, I love that. I'm curious how a personal savior chat starts.

Oh my gosh. My favorite one was from, with, I, of course, won't mention his name, but a guy who now is like, you would maybe even know his name. He just, he's, he's just skyrocketed, done all this cool stuff. So it was, he had moved from a smaller city to Denver. He was having a really great time, you know, he was young and single and out there. And I, I'm not known to get to work early. Never really have been. We started on the floor at 9, but, you know, I, they go alphabetically. I was an M. I knew how to walk into, you know, on the letter before me, kind of drove my people crazy. But, you know, I had little kids. I had to get to school and I. I wanted breakfast was our time together. I wanted the morning to be sync synchro sanc. So, anyway, he would arrive after me, and that wasn't cool. And my chief of staff was like, OK, we have to talk to him about this. And he did not expect the meeting to go that way. He was so shocked. And it was like, you've got to get here before your boss. They're like starting there. And that kind of sunk in. And then we were able to talk more about the more substant things that were maybe slipping, but he was so hilarious. Like, this is back when people could give gifts and that doesn't happen anymore, and he would leave me a note like, I know you don't drink white wine, and someone gave you a bottle of white wine, so I'm gonna take that home. Which I was totally down for. I just thought it was really funny. So we had a, we maintained this, and I love this guy, and we maintained a great relationship. So we tried to keep it very human. Start with something that you couldn't deny. Like, you're not, you're not getting here before your boss, because sometimes people hear something and the first thing they think is, no, I don't do that. Yeah, yeah. So start with something that's pretty undeniable, and then go, go from there.

Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I think, yeah, if you see potential in someone, it's definitely worth having that conversation. And sometimes they might, you know, they think they know better, or maybe they do know better, but you have to, from your experience, get, you know, I think you have to do it and feel good with yourself.

Yeah, I had one that didn't go well. The person said, literally, I just didn't know you'd be this needy. Yeah, it was like, and I needed the correct directions to an event that was like my being needy, so that was pretty fun. OK, we need to plan an exit strategy for her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's the ramp. Yeah, and in and of itself when you work with someone knowing how well they can accept feedback is also, you know, the right answer is, yeah, OK, thanks, I'll work on it whether you do or don't.

Yeah, yeah, that's wild. But yeah, you, you also worked, so you've worked, you're at Audubon now, which is, you know, a huge respectful organization. And you've also worked for Greenpeace, another amazing, I would say an organization that people just sort of revere. How are these two? They have very distinct different missions, but what are the nuances between working and them both?

Yeah, and, you know, Greenpeace USA, I don't know if you followed the saga that has happened, but they were sued and lost a, you know, horrible lawsuit. So that was sort of in the background of when I was working there, but they hired me for a specific thing, and it was. New for them. So I hired, I was hired to create sort of a political arm. And they hadn't done, you know, really straight up lobbying. Their MO is really creative, public statements, just sort of, you know, shame, push, pull corporations into better behavior. So, this was more a policy bent. So, I created a, a 527 for them, which is a way to raise, you know, money and, and spend money, and ramped up their C4 efforts. So, I had a very specific Specific goal in mind there. And I knew it would be short term. I thought I'd, you know, it would take about a year. It was pretty slow going. And there was, internally, there were still some, like, Should we be doing this? Should we not be doing this? So, I was there for about a year and a half, just such great respect for everyone there. And, you know, the creativity, the humor, the beautiful light shows on a building, you know, of a whale moving. I mean, just so much eye-catching thing. They, it truly the best coms department I've ever been around. So that was super, super fun. And I was engaged with their legal team quite a bit. Just, I'm not, you know, I'm still a lawyer, but that wasn't my job. But I really respected the legal team. They were facing this North Dakota lawsuit over the, it was just such a ridiculous thing, but they ended up losing, which is heartbreaking. So, but, yeah, that happened after I left the lawsuit, the actual trial. But yeah, that was a really cool organization, and yes, quite different.

Yeah, so you have someone who's about to graduate or they're getting their degree in conservation, and they're like, hey, Alice, should I apply for Audubon? Do I apply for Greenpeace? Should I become an attorney? How would you give someone that initial advice of what do I choose? Because I know that is where people get hung up a lot. It's like, OK, I graduated, and then they're like, ah, let's do now.

Yeah, I would say a couple of different things. One is you've gotta pay the bills, right? So, cast a wide net, cause I will say my first job out of law school, kind of boring, but that's when I started adding other things. I got on a land trust board, etc. So, even if you don't land your dream job, you know, you do have other times of the day. You can volunteer and decide what the other. Parts of your life you want to be. So just keep that in the back of your mind. But, you know, I would think about, do a lot of research. If you are a conservation or environmental scientist, I think you wanna go someplace where you can do that work right off the bat. Like it's same advice for someone who's going to law school and they think, well, maybe I wanna work in policy, but I'll go to law school first. Try to be a lawyer for a couple of years. Lawyers are kind of snobby. If you went to law school and didn't actually practice law, you're not really a real lawyer. So you know, practice law for a couple of years and then go do something else, and actually it'll, it will give you so much great experience, um, writing, the advocacy, the learning that your person across the table today might be your advocate tomorrow. Or your partner tomorrow and another thing. A lot of life skills from, you know, being a lawyer. So, I would say just have an open mind is if you look at my career as, you know, there were some, thought I was going this way, I ended up going that way. So, I was lucky to remain open to opportunities that came my way, some I didn't expect, or, so, I, I just really think people should. Not drive themselves crazy because, you know, they're not getting the perfect thing. There will be other avenues. And frankly, when I look at a resume and I see someone's doing this cool volunteer work, you know, trying to build toward their passion, that tells me a lot. So, I, I would just, you know, think about, what do you want your other, you know, your extracurricular activities to look like.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And what type of skills, like, if you were looking back at your younger self, what type of skills would you be telling yourself to work on?

So I was a bartender right out of college and um yeah and one of my cool come on well first of all, and I of course can't remember any of them, I learned like some amazing jokes and we would have some bets if I could guess the best punchline or come up on my own liar's poker with dollar bills that probably didn't exist anymore. I mean it was just such and I did the happy hour crowds. It was, it was a bar for old people, like 30-somethings. So one of my regulars got me a job at a high-tech company, and I became a technical writer. Had no experience whatsoever, but this guy thought I was funny and sharp and got me a job there. It's where I ended up meeting my husband, Pete, and I was a technical writer, and I learned the art of, you know, writing short, clear sentences, because I was, I was trying to turn really technical things that engineers had to explain to me into things that, you know, maybe assistants had to read. And then I started, I just took it upon myself. This was a time when there was a lot of software changes and computer changes. I'm embarrassed to even talk about, like, you know, what software was out there for even writing documents. So I started just writing my own little user manuals for, you know, back then, it's called secretary. So for secretaries to try to figure this stuff out, so we'd work and just literally write like things in really plain sentences, like, press this button. Then that button because there were no, you know, explanation guides for that kind of stuff. So, um, I stayed in high tech for several years. It was really fun and it was all about the art of making complex things simple. OK, fast forward to talking to a politician who doesn't have a lot of time, you know, this might not be their thing. So you want 1 page, 4 points. Think soundbites. So that, you know, writing clearly, no one's really interested in, well, it depends. And, you know, no one's necessarily interested in your adjectives. They are appropriate in some cases. But, you know, think about who your audience is and what they need to know at that moment in time.

Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like that's a theme through my life too, is, is just. The things that you think are irrelevant and why am I doing this right now? They're gonna show up in some other way in the future. You're like, oh, I, that skill did come in handy. I'm glad I learned that. And the, the, I have to tell you a quick story. When I was in law school, I did moot court competitions, which were, ended up being amazing. We had Archibald Cox as our constitutional law teacher, and for folks who don't remember, he was the attorney general that Nixon fired on a Saturday night, um, because he, Archibald Cox wanted Nixon to follow the law, and he was my co-law teacher and my advisor on moot court, and he's, he's the one who said, Judge. Isn't really interested in your adjectives, which I just thought was so funny. So he's like, they don't have a lot of time. They're busy people, make your point and move on. So I just, I like that.

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, we have a segment on the show called #t Feel notes. It's where we ask our guests to talk about their memorable moments doing the work in the field. And so if you're listening, we want to hear your stories. You can send them to us at. Info at environmentalprofessionalsradio.com or the form on our website. These are funny, scary, awkward field stories, just things that relate to us all, but I'm sure you have many. But is there anything that comes to mind you'd like to share with us today?

Well, one of the cooler things I will say I've gotten to Do is, it's a volunteer gig, but Rocky Mountain Science and Sustainability Network, a, a group of women that was back when I was at CU Law School. Actually, it was probably when I was at Worth Chair at the University of Denver. We got an NSF grant, which don't really exist anymore, unfortunately. And we put together this thing that lasted for about 11 years, where we take a group of students to the Tetons and to the Yellowstone, and these were students of color in STEM majors, mostly from cities. So, it would be like young people from LA or New Orleans, Mexico, and we would take them to the Grand Tetons and had this curriculum, like a week-long curriculum in the field, amazing speakers coming in from the national parks. And these young people were blown away by what they were seeing. Each cohort stayed in touch. You know, when I talked about, you know, helping constituents with personal matters, this is second to that for sure, when I think about really proud accomplishments, just seeing these people connect, build their careers. Again, these same people are now, you know, having these amazing careers. But one thing, I wrote a paper about Wolfrey introduction when I was in law school in Yellowstone. That's how old I am. It hadn't happened yet. And, um, so we're, we're in Yellowstone, and it's like, you know, these, we're up there and we see wolves and we hear them howling, and they're like, Oh, this is cool. I was like, No, you don't know how cool this is. I had never seen a wolf in the wild and to be able to see them with really You know, some young people who had not experienced nature to that deep extent before was just one of the coolest things ever.

Yeah, that's incredible. Oh, I'm so jealous. Uh, that's, that's a great experience. But you know, it made me think of something else, and you've talked a little bit about people that have gone on. You, you were mentors to them at one point, and they've gone on to have bigger and broader careers. And I'm actually curious, like, as someone who, I mean, you didn't stop mentoring people, you continue to do that. And then you have this huge network of people that you have helped support and then they help support you. What has that been like as you go through your career where you see some of the people start to have success in lots of different places that, I mean, it has to be obviously um inspiring thing, but they, yeah, you, you've kind of created a web of people that from your influence it's very, very cool.

I feel incredibly lucky, and again, so much of, I feel like, you know, right time, right place, and just, you know, I just think. Again, it's sort of the golden rule, treating people like you would like to be treated. I was lucky enough younger in my career to have some, even at the law firm where I said I was kind of bored, there was there, and I was, but there was a couple of people there who were just so cool, and when I got involved with the Women's Bar Association, that's how I decided to run for office. I, um, you know, was doing a program called Running for office, what's stopping you? And these women I was working with are like, Why aren't you running? I was like, Oh, that's a good question. So I ended up running. So, you know, sometimes you need someone to, you know, look at you and shake you a little bit. I still work with a young woman, or, um, mid-career woman now who's running this Megan organization. She's teaching me stuff every week. So, it goes both ways. These are lifelong commitments. And, um, years ago, I saw this image that I just loved, and I've always kept it in mind, and I'm not gonna explain it well enough because it was really beautiful. But it was of a figure, sort of a female figure with her arm up and being pulled, and, you know, looking upward, and then, you know, having her hand back and you could tell, like her arm was. Pulling someone up and that person was looking up at her and it was just this like, yeah, we have to be connected and we have to help each other and men and women. I've, I have two sons. I joke that they, I shouldn't say this, but sometimes when I really love men, I call them honorary women. I don't know if you want to include that on the session, but no, no, that's, that's great. Well, Nic, Nic would be an honorary woman. I mean, you know, welcome to the club, Nic.

Hey, hey, happy to be here. Happy to be here. Uh, that's very funny. No, I love it. I love it. And it's like one of the joys of doing the show is getting to meet people and getting to know them. And like, you know, I think one of the challenges, especially. When you don't know someone is like there's almost this like, like you said, like you're meeting someone, you're nervous, and then you realize they're a regular person. So our way of kind of giving that minivan and flip flops persona for our guests is to ask them what they do for fun. So what do you do when you're not talking Audubon, you're not talking energy? What do you do for fun?

Well, and part of the reason I got into environmental protection is that we are committed outdoors people. I grew up in Saint Louis, but moved to Colorado for college. I think my first backpacking trip was when I was 16. I literally was, I ran into a YMCA to use the bathroom. It's on a hot summer day in Saint Louis, and there was a little piece of paper where you could tear off the phone number. It's like, take a trip to Havasu Canyon. And I, my parents let me go in a VW van like with strangers. I went to a VW van to down and hike down to Kavasu Canyon. Which is truly one of the most beautiful places in the United States. Um, and, you know, that sunk into my brain. It's like, these places have to exist. They have to be protected. So, early camping, canoeing in Missouri, just got really, it was just my happy, happy space. So, and now we're in Colorado, so we hike, we ski, and, uh, I play tennis. I have to say, my one regret was during those 8 years, I was in the legislature, for the 5 months legislature was going. I did not take care of myself. And physically, you know, everything slipped. You know, I, I had an exercise bike in my office, and it turned into a coat rack. It just, you know, I just, and I was, you know, it was incredibly busy. And so I, after that, I just committed, like, I have to take care of my mental and physical health, and just made that a commitment to always build that into my life. And it is hard. And my kids are both athletes. I was able to, you know, be out with them and be active. Yeah, so I would give that advice to, you know, protect your time because it, it'll, your professional career will thrive if you are a thriving person.

Yeah, yeah, that's great advice. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it really is. Although I, I do have to ask how your parents let you go. I don't know how that would be possible.

I don't know. Was it like, I mean, God, this was back in the days when I hitchhiked with girlfriends. So it was, you know, just different world. Things changed pretty quickly.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I graduated from high school in '77 and Yeah, I mean, I drove across country and talked to my parents once a week, you know, on Sundays.

Yeah, hey, everything's fine. See you later, bye. So, yeah, I was just, and I feel lucky in a way, you know, I see how our, our kids were raised. And, I mean, I was a very involved parent, but really one of them was like, OK, you're old enough to work, you're 16, you need to go get a job. So, that was, my parents were, my dad, particularly was a Depression era, uh, you know, World War II vet. So it was like, get an education and, you know, work hard. So I've never took my education for granted, and I didn't want my children to either.

Yeah, and it's is great. This has been a lot of great, great advice. We are running out of time, which is unbelievable. We really could just keep talking to you forever, but is there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like to?

You know, I would just advise people, again, don't beat yourself up. If the golden opportunity is not in front of you right now, literally sit down and think about what else can I do to make myself happy and feel like I'm, you know, adding value. To the things I love and make that plan. And yes, you're going to work, and maybe that's not ideal for right now, but build the other plan. So when you apply for the next job, they will see that, yeah, this is definitely his or her passion and look how much they're putting into it. And I, I guarantee it might not pay off professionally right away, but it'll certainly help your soul. The other thing I'd like to say when I have any kind of captured audience of smart people, I didn't run for office until I was 42 years old. So, I think we need smart people to run for office, and I know it seems like, you know, not a fun thing to do, but that's why you need to do it. And I, you know, those 8 years were really some of the most amazing of my, of my life. So, you know, please think about it or work for a politician or a candidate that you love, cause we really need good policies being passed, and so think about running for office or helping others get elected.

What great advice. Thank you again. And last but not least, where can people get in touch with you if they'd like to?

So, my email is alice.madden350@gmail.com. And yes, the 350 is a reference to a number that probably has been blown out of the water in reference to climate change, but so, and if you don't get that, figure it out. Look it up.

That's great. Thank you so much for being here, Alice. It was great to have you.

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

That's our show. Thank you, Alice, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. Bye.

See you, everybody.