Cultural Resources Management, Transitioning from PhD to Field Archeology, and Working in Saudi Arabia with Dr. Angela Perri

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Angela Perri, Vice President of International at Chronicle Heritage about Cultural Resources Management, Transitioning from PhD to Field Archeology, and Working in Saudi Arabia.  Read her full bio below.

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Angela Perri at linkedin.com/in/angela-perri-ph-d-605855222

Guest Bio:
As Vice President of International at Chronicle Heritage, Dr. Angela Perri directs a broad portfolio of heritage projects across the international space, including in the GCC, UK, and Europe. Since joining the firm in 2021, she has expanded the division’s international capabilities and built a diverse team of heritage professionals from around the world. Her leadership has supported the successful delivery of dozens of major initiatives for clients operating in complex cultural and regulatory environments. Dr. Perri holds a Ph.D. in Archaeology from Durham University and is an expert in prehistoric archaeology, domestication, and archaeological science.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura.

On today's episode, I talk about the upcoming live EPR FAEP conference at the Hutchinson Island Marriott in Stuart, Florida.

We interview Angela Perri about cultural resource management, transitioning from PhD to field archaeology, and working in Saudi Arabia.

Finally, because this is touched on during our interview, here are some fun facts about dog domestication.

Dogs were first domesticated species diverging from wolf ancestors, likely from Europe, Asia, or both, between 15,000 and 30,000+ years ago. Dogs separated from wolves about 33,000 years ago in East Asia, and were fully domesticated within 15,000 years. Likely, they domesticate themselves by scavenging for food from human settlements, allowing for a mutually beneficial relationship. Dogs evolved smaller teeth, shorter muzzles, and smaller brains compared to wolves. They also developed the ability to digest starch better than wolves, allowing them to thrive on human food scraps.

Oh, that's interesting. Get that music.

This year, NAEP is hosting their annual conference and training symposium in Anchorage, Alaska from Monday, May 11th through Thursday, May 14th.

The conference is a great opportunity to learn about new projects, share technical knowledge, network with other industry professionals, and engage with environmental leaders.

Not a member yet? Join NAEP with special discount code EPR for $25 off your membership.

Register now at www.NAEP.org.

Let's get to our segment.

Hey Riley, how was your birthday?

It was really good. How about yours?

It was good. I don't think it was as good probably as Nic's from London, but, um, you know, not too bad. It's spring in New York City, so I'm happy about that.

Love to hear that. We've been getting a few tornadoes here in Milwaukee, so the earth is earthing.

It's earthing, it's earthing, yes.

But speaking of earth and the environment, we have an FAEP live conference coming up. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah, of course. So, as you already know, we are doing our live episode, as we did last year from FAEP which will be in Stewart, Florida this year, at the Hutchinson Island Marriott, and so it is, the conference is April twenty-ninth to May 1st.

And we'll be doing the live Friday morning, and that will be in front of anyone who's up early enough for breakfast, and then when we'll be interviewing Kelly Samuels from AECO, she's currently, I think, by us treasurer, I think of FAEP.

And so, um, we're excited to talk to her. Her work sounds really awesome, and then on Fri uh I think it's Friday, no, that is Friday, on Sunday, the last day, May 1st, whatever day that happens to be, I'll be on a panel, I'll be moderating a panel called Navigating the Silver Tsunami, Managing the Generational shift within the Environmental professions through Succession planning, mentoring, training, and workforce transitions.

And that will be led by Josh Hurton, who is the environmental discipline leader with CDM Smith, and he's the president right now, I think, of FAP.

And then we will also on the panel will be Bro Bruce Hasbrook, who served on the TBAP board as the parliamentarian when I was the vice president and president. So, he is near and dear to my heart, so I'm excited to share the panel with him.

And then lastly will be Kelsey Tate, who was a project geologist with A company called Novel E Solutions, which is owned by a really good friend of mine, also who I met through TBAP Liza Gruden.

So I'm super excited about being on the panel with these particular people.

And yeah, we're just gonna talk about Bruce is going to focus on what it was like to retire, what happens after you retire, how do you stay busy and engaged, if I know, how do you balance like being retired but not wanting to still go to the office and stuff like that.

And yeah, and then the rest of us will just cover, you know, how do you get over the challenges of the different generations and what are people facing, so.

Anybody listening, if you're planning to be there, we hope you'll join us for that session, but I think that's, that's like a good conversation though, right, for us even to have right now.

So Marley, what do you think would be good topics for this panel?

Oh my gosh, whoa, OK. Put you go in the hot seat. I'm like burning up in the hot seat right now.

In terms of different generations and how they, what, what do you see as, you know, a difference that you see between my generation and yours?

Well, I can't necessarily speak for the differences because I don't really know how your generation specifically acts or any other besides my own, but I know in terms of issues of the environment and environmental careers, I think there's kind of a combination of a lot of different emotions and how we approach the work.

I think a large part of it is anxiety, but I think another part of it is this, the sustainability sector, especially like renewable energy sector, has expanded so aggressively, especially the past few years, that I do think it's gonna open up like a huge amount.

It's going to continue to open up job opportunities, especially for my generation and the, you know, younger generations.

And so, it's kind of this combination of uncertainty and innovation and opportunity.

And then obviously, AI you can't ignore that being part of the conversation in terms of employment, kind of seeing how all of that turns out.

It just feels like there's a lot of unanswered questions for our generation, especially as we enter the workforce.

And so, I honestly think, I mean, I can speak for myself, I guess. I look towards the older generations to help me navigate early career hood in light of all of these new changes happening at once.

So, I think if you're just emerging into the workforce, this definitely would be a really good conversation to listen in on the FAAP Live.

Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, it's, we're looking at two different sides of the timeline, you know, you're facing these as things you're going to deal with your entire career and myself and anyone older is facing it as, well, that's their problem. Handing off the baton, right?

So, yeah, so, you know, I think there has to be a lot of empathy from my generation and up and how that standing on the edge of that bridge will look different if you're on different sides of that bridge.

So, great, I think that's a great, that is exactly the type of stuff that we will talk about on the panel.

So thank you for that, and yeah, this was a really cool interview that we did, so I'm excited to get for it, to it.

So let's get to it. Let's get for it.

Welcome back to EPR. Today we're joined by Angela Perri.

Angela is a PhD and vice president of International with Chronicle Heritage.

Hi, Angela, thanks for joining us today.

Hi, Laura, thanks for having me.

When I say us, I mean me. Nic is in London living his best life, and so I'm super excited to interview you as a paleo archaeologist because I know he'll be uber jealous he's not here. So hi Nic. Sorry.

Yeah, sorry in advance.

That said, how about if you could just start with how you got into this work and were you always interested in history or dinosaurs or how did that start?

Yeah, so, I was an only child and like a lot of kids in the 80s and 90s, my grandma got me a National Geographic subscription and I was a Girl Scout and I was into all things like outdoors, hiking, camping, science, nature, all of that.

And so, I think, you know, I always knew I wanted to do something in the world of animals and outdoors and things like that and never imagined that it was a real job that you could get paid for.

And, you know, as I made my way through university, I realized that anthropology and archaeology, in particular, were a real job. Something that like you could pursue and you could, you know, get paid to do and I was pretty excited about that.

So, yeah, I started as an undergrad in anthropology and then made my way to the UK to pursue my PhD in archaeology. So here I am.

Awesome.

So you said you grew up in Las Vegas.

I grew up in Las Vegas. I was born and raised in Las Vegas and lived there all my life until I went to university in Oregon. And then eventually to the UK for my PhD.

Awesome. What was it like growing up in Las Vegas? I feel like, you know, I grew up in Florida, which is very different where I am. I imagine kids getting on the subway in New York to go to school, and imagining a whole different scenario for teenagers in Las Vegas.

I think like anywhere, you are just so used to the place you grew up that I think until I left Vegas, I didn't realize how weird it was to grow up in Vegas. Like, it was just normal for us to, like, as teenagers, spend time on the Strip and, you know, go into casinos and have lots of options of things to do and ways to get in trouble.

So, outside of the Strip, Vegas is a pretty boring, normal place with like, you know, the same type of neighborhoods and grocery stores and all the, the normal things. You wouldn't know you were in Vegas outside of the, like 120 degree heat.

But, yeah, I mean, I think the fun thing about Vegas is there's plenty of things to do. And once you leave Vegas, you realize what a unique, kind of strange experience it was to, to grow up there.

And there, there aren't a lot of us. Obviously, there's a growing number of people, but, you know, when I was born in Vegas, the number of people who live there compared to millions now was very different.

Yeah, it seems like it would have been a really unique experience. That's awesome.

And all right, so you mentioned you started college sort of with a different track in mind when you said there's, you realized that there was real actual paid work you could get doing archaeology. What is that type of work?

I know you're doing something now, but for people listening who are like, I think I want to do archaeology, but I don't really know what it is, especially as it crosses over into environment. What does that work?

So archaeology in the dirt, you know.

Archaeology is interesting in the US versus the rest of the world. In the rest of the world, if you wanted to do a degree in archaeology, you would just go to a department of archaeology at any university.

In the US we do it a little bit differently. We do what we call four field anthropology. So, if you want to be an archaeologist, you get a degree in anthropology in the US, which is unlike the rest of the world.

And so, to become an archaeologist in the US you go into a program where you would have linguistics, biological anthropology, cultural anthropology, and then also archaeology as this kind of fourth field that makes it up.

So you end up being a kind of more well‑rounded anthropologist and archaeologist because you've taken all these classes more in the cultural anthropology side, not just straight archaeology.

And I think this is a really good training actually for people who want to go into the type of field I am in, like cultural resource management, because it's a lot more than archaeology itself.

And so the type of work that I do in cultural resource management and heritage kind of consultancy and advisory is basically helping a client that could be a government entity, that could be like a state‑level entity, that could be an environmental or engineering company, or it could be down to like an individual person who wants to do something, for example, with their house that is affected by built heritage.

So, it's everything from what people think of as traditional archaeology, like going on a pedestrian survey and walking an area looking for artifacts on the ground, or full‑on archaeological excavation.

Or we have people on our team who are built heritage specialists. So, for example, they look at historical buildings that they're going to do like renovations to and talk about the historical significance of like the materials of a building or something like that.

All the way through to working with governments and like a master plan for a new city and thinking about the heritage elements of that city and planning around maybe historical waterways or historical buildings or what we call intangible cultural heritage.

So, maybe there's an area that doesn't have something physical there, but we know that that was like an important viewpoint or an important place where festivals were held or something like that.

So, thinking about all those kind of cultural heritage elements that affect building, planning, development, tourism, all of that.

So, that's our job within the kind of cultural heritage space is thinking through with our clients how anything that you're going to do affects or is affected by the local heritage.

Got it, got it.

And before we jump in more into your project, I want to stay on the PhD for just a second because I want to learn more about your initial studies, which sounded really interesting in dog behavior.

Yeah, so my, what I call my former life, my life as a professor and an academic, I was, I still am, a specialist in ancient DNA and archaeology, dog domestication, so early relationships between humans and dogs.

And my PhD looked at how humans use dogs as basically the first tool technology, like biotechnology.

Which we hear a lot about now, but really, humans using dogs to do things for them is the kind of advent of the idea of like something living can do something for us.

And so, I looked at how when humans were dealing with climatic change back in that kind of Pleistocene‑Holocene transition after the last ice age, it became warm again in the period we're in now, which is the Holocene period.

That was a kind of rapid and dramatic change for humans to live through and that the way they adapted to that, one of the ways is by using dogs to help them hunt.

So they hunted in different types of environments, different types of prey species, things like that.

And so, through my PhD and since then I've done a lot of work with various groups to look at the ancient DNA of dogs, where were dogs domesticated, why, how, when, questions around all of those things.

And kind of our early relationships with dogs and trying to figure out why dogs are what they are to us now. How did we get here?

Um, and how did this like thing that was a wolf somehow like weasel its way into our life.

And so the most amazing thing possible, which is they mostly sit on our couch and we pick up their poop and we feed them and we, we work for them. We, we coddle them.

And, and provide them toys and treats. And like, they've got a pretty sweet life, a lot of like kind of modern dogs who live with us in our homes.

And so how they've become this, like, you know, how a pug has come from a great Arctic wolf, right?

Where, what is the process by which that happened. And so, that's my kind of, my other life, is being a dog and wolf researcher.

That's really fascinating. And I would love to talk to you more about that, but let's move on.

So, we also were chatting beforehand about the transition from PhD to working cultural resource manager, and that transition doesn't happen a lot.

So, for you, how did that come to be and, you know, if you think someone else wants to make that shift, what kind of things should they be considering?

Yeah, I would say that a lot of people in my field of archaeology, they will work in cultural resource management, like as when they're an undergrad or something at the kind of the starting level for us, which is like a field technician, like someone who's going out doing, you know, pedestrian survey with a larger team of people.

And so like, like a lot of archaeologists, that's, I started there and I started doing that work when I was an undergrad.

And then I moved on to do my PhD and I was in the world of, you know, academia and writing papers and research grants and things like that, and I kind of, for us, there's often a split of people who go down the research and academic PhD path versus the people who go on to do usually like a master's and become a person in the cultural resource management world.

And traditionally, those two paths have had a lot of separation, right?

There hasn't been, if you go on to have a PhD, you wouldn't normally then immediately think of cultural resource management and being a professional archaeologist as, you know, a job option for you and vice versa.

People who are in CRM don't necessarily think of academia being a pathway for them.

And I think in the last few years especially, this has really broken down and there have been a lot more people, given the state of academia now, who have thought about, you know, cultural resource management coming out of academia and universities as a really strong possibility for kind of next steps in their lives.

So, that's how, you know, it worked for me.

I was a professor at Texas A&M in the Department of Anthropology as an archaeologist. I loved my colleagues. I loved my students. I loved everything I did there.

But I could see that academia was going to be a challenge in, in the coming years, and I thought, I'd like to do more.

I'd like to do more than what I'm doing here, more than just, you know, teaching archaeology. There's a whole world out there.

Most people in their lives have been to a UNESCO World Heritage site or had it on their bucket list to go visit UNESCO World Heritage sites.

With environmental change, with conflict around the world, heritage is a challenge.

It's a challenge in thinking about, you know, when we think about the conflicts going on in the Middle East right now, it's a challenge to think about how do we protect heritage in those types of situations.

You know, when someone bombs a city, the heritage buildings, the World Heritage sites, the UNESCO sites of the world that we all think of as like world treasures of places that belong to all of us are affected by this.

When new cities are built, you know, part of, anytime you go to a new city, what's one of the first things that you do?

You Google, like, what should I do in this city? And usually what comes up is heritage stuff, right?

Some amazing historical building. Some amazing historical tour, an archaeological site, something like that.

Those are the things that we tend to think about is how do I feel the culture and heritage of this place that I'm visiting.

And so being able to be part of that on a worldwide scale, what we do at Chronicle Heritage is an opportunity that although I loved academia and teaching and my students, like, I have a much broader experience of what I get to do in the kind of worldwide stage of cultural heritage and archaeology.

And I can be more effective.

Really, in this world, I get the very unique opportunity with my team to affect policy and affect, you know, heritage strategy across the world and to work with clients who are at the ground level of thinking about, you know, building up heritage sites and UNESCO sites for their country.

So that's such a unique experience.

Yeah.

Yeah, very cool, and I love that you are the VP of international projects because I assume that means you get to travel a lot and see a lot of cool things.

Yeah, maybe less lately, but yeah, let's hear about the projects. What kind of, what are some of your faves?

So, as the vice president of International, we at Chronicle, we have an entity based in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia that oversees work in the Middle East.

We have an entity in the UK that oversees work kind of across Europe and then further abroad as well.

So, we kind of take on projects worldwide, no matter where it is. We kind of come up with heritage solutions on that end.

So a lot of our work in the last 4 years has been in the Middle East and particularly in Saudi Arabia as they move towards what they call Vision 2030, which is kind of the goal of the kingdom to be well prepared to take on infrastructure, tourism, all sorts of things by that date.

A lot of the focus has been on heritage and tourism and exactly what we were talking about before.

If someone comes to visit Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or the UAE, what are they gonna want to do? What are they gonna want to see? What can we offer them as a unique kind of cultural opportunity?

And the Middle East has stunning, amazing archaeology and heritage and sites and things like that.

Anyone who's been to Petra in Jordan has, you know, seen that. Anyone who's been to see the pyramids in Egypt, you know, there's a lot of kind of stunning heritage, cultural background in that area and so much to develop and look at in terms of tourism.

And so old, right? Like, really old, really old.

United States, we're only going back a few 100 years. In the UK we're going back a few more 100 years, but in this area we're going back far.

We are, we're going back far.

I think like in the US and Central and South America, people would say, I'm going to go to Machu Picchu, right? Or I'm gonna go to see various Aztec sites or something like that, or we're gonna see Cahokia in Illinois or something like that.

And so, there's the equivalent of like these kind of historical and prehistorical cultures across the Middle East that a bunch of people outside of the Middle East just don't really know about and don't get the opportunity to hear about.

So, with Chronicle Heritage Arabia, that's kind of what we focus on is working primarily with like government entities to help deliver and design like heritage strategies of how people can know more about the archaeology and heritage of the Middle East.

But we do everything from working with master planning and design teams who are designing like a new city, to doing surveys.

You know, we did one of the largest surveys in the Middle East. We walked across the entire desert of northwest Saudi Arabia, looking for artifacts and cultural heritage sites, and we found thousands and thousands of them.

It's just like an incredibly rich area.

And so we do underwater archaeology as well. When you think about, you know, if you're a diver, when you go to a new place, you think like, oh, is there an amazing dive site?

And usually when you're looking for dive sites, you think about things like, are there shipwrecks, are there, you know, amazing historical things to see underwater as well.

So, we do that type of work as well.

And then kind of everything in between in terms of like, if we find something amazing, then does it go into a museum?

Do we have like a visitor experience where if you go to an archaeological site, anyone who's been to visit, you know, any of the national parks or, you know, big archaeological sites in the US, for example, they know when they go somewhere and it has really amazing imagery and signs that are explaining to you or maybe you get to hear, you know, sounds from the culture that it's describing or music or things like that.

So, thinking about those kind of visitor experiences with if someone's looking at an archaeological site, how do we help them understand what it is that they're looking at.

Yeah, that sounds really exciting. What is like the coolest thing you've ever seen or place you've seen or discovered?

My gosh, in Saudi Arabia itself, there are, it's endless.

There's a really amazing Islamic and pre‑Islamic archaeology there. What people know and see from Petra in Jordan, we have, like, in multitudes all across Saudi Arabia.

That kind of what's called Nabatean culture, those monumental tombs that you see in Jordan, there's loads of those in Saudi Arabia all over.

And they're just, you know, when you're standing in the middle of the desert and you're looking at one of these monumental tombs, it's almost surreal.

It feels like you're in, like, on the set of Indiana Jones or something, right?

It's kind of what we think of when we get into archaeology. Like, one day I'm gonna be standing in front of this amazing thing.

And so, you know, there's a lot of that type of amazing architecture and archaeology all across the Middle East, and really just like all across the world.

There's amazing, like touchstones of the cultures and people who have come before us that as archaeologists and cultural heritage managers, we're lucky to get to not only see those things, I get to stand next to it and touch this tomb in Saudi Arabia.

But also work with our partners to say like, OK, now how can we help a million other people come and see this and get to experience what I'm experiencing right now without destroying it.

Absolutely, yeah. We make plans about how we avoid destruction and protection of cultural heritage, yeah.

Yeah.

So, how did you get into this particular role? Like, had you ever been to that part of the world before?

Did you say, OK, I'm applying for this, and then, you know.

Yeah, so I started working for Chronicle Heritage on the domestic side, on the US side.

And so I started working here in Vegas out of the Nevada office and became the head of the Nevada office.

So, the heritage we're talking about in the US is quite different.

You know, I was working with Air Force bases and the BLM and doing kind of local Intermountain West Great Basin archaeology here.

And then someone in our company had their PhD in Arabian archaeology, and he got the idea like, why don't we look into working in the Middle East?

Like, there are a lot of interesting opportunities there. Like, let's just see what happens.

And so, we kind of worked together to write the first proposal for work there.

And it just, it frankly, it just kind of took off.

Never in my life did I think I would be doing work in the Middle East. My PhD and prior work had nothing to do with the Middle East.

And, um, when I first started working there, I didn't, I honestly didn't really know what to expect.

And what I found is, you know, an amazing group of people, amazing culture, amazing archaeological finds, and really something that I'm really passionate now about making sure that other people, particularly in the Western world, know about and are excited by.

You know, my goal would be that, you know, in 5 years, everyone's like, we have to go to Saudi Arabia to see, like, it's the next pyramids or it's the next Jordan.

People think like, this is so amazing that I need to go and see this for myself.

So, it's really become like a second home to me and the people are just warm and welcoming and inviting and so genuinely excited about their heritage and about sharing their culture with the world that it's just infectious actually to work there.

Oh, that's really awesome.

There's a lot of obviously stigma and falsities and things spread around about what it's like, especially for women to go over there, and I feel the same way about New York City.

When I've told people I moved here, they're like, oh my gosh, you get on the subways by yourself, you know.

Like something you don't know until you experience yourself, like, oh, it's cool, it's fine.

Of course, yeah.

And the first time, you know, I went to the Middle East, of course, I was nervous about what to expect.

And, you know, in the last 4 years, I've been there many, many times.

And I would say very honestly that I feel safer in Saudi Arabia than I feel in the US all the time.

So, um, I have only met people who are warm and lovely and care about family and protecting their heritage and people who are really passionate about what we do.

I work with many, many, many women, Saudi women, and women from the Middle East who are stellar at their jobs and are at the highest echelons of companies and government entities that I work with.

So I haven't encountered any of the stereotypes that people would normally think about.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's really good to hear.

And that might put it up higher on my list.

I saved some of those reels on Instagram when I see those tombs and stuff, I'm like saving.

I mean, it genuinely is like all the things you think about when, you know, you see a movie and someone's in one of these, you know, Indiana Jones‑like environments.

It's almost impossible to believe that you're, you're there.

Or, you know, entire villages, like the village of AlUla, that is made of like these amazing mud brick buildings, like just an entire town of it.

It's almost, you almost think you can't be seeing it in real life, but it is, and it's just, it's amazing to see.

And now when I go there and I see, you know, tourists there who are, you know, Instagrammers, people taking pictures, vloggers, it's kind of, it makes me smile.

That like it's being discovered by other people finally and, you know, people are getting to experience that kind of unique perspective of the Middle East.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

I mean, you kind of are like Indiana Jones. You just made up the work and decided to go and showed up there.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think as an archaeologist, we're lucky that our job, by definition, often means traveling.

And so, we get to see a lot of amazing things and we get to experience a lot of things prior to development.

So we get to see often like the kind of raw version of something before it's been developed and be part of the experience of what developing it with cultural heritage in mind looks like.

So, that's a unique opportunity.

How do you think, like, being in those spaces, these ancient places, and just absorbing that, how has that shaped sort of your outlook on life or your whole world, like, before you went versus maybe how you view things now?

Yeah, I would say in general that living abroad for so long, you know, I lived in Europe for 14 years before I came back to the US.

And working regularly in other parts of the world, but particularly in the Middle East, talking to people there, experiencing day to day life with people there, it gives you a unique perspective on what's important there.

Why certain parts of heritage have preserved for so long, and it helps you understand how what we do in heritage is not some like historical ancient study of archaeology or something like that.

Like, I can see a pot that we've excavated that's 3000 years old, and I can also go to a modern market and see the modern version of that exact same pot.

That's used for making tea or coffee or something like that.

And I think when you have that lived experience of traveling and spending a lot of time around people who don't necessarily think like you or look like you or talk like you, that you realize we're really a very small part of a much bigger, complex dynamic of people and experiences.

And I hate when people think of archaeology and cultural heritage as this old dusty thing sitting in a basement in a museum somewhere because it's modern.

It's our lived experience and probably everything that we do right now, right?

I'm holding a can of seltzer water, but this is the product of something thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago that someone developed a cup, something to put liquid in, right?

And so, we are the product of, you know, tens of thousands of years of evolution of people's ideas and cultures and experiences.

And it's pretty amazing to go to a place like the Middle East and see people who are doing and experiencing and living life that has like these touchstones that I can see from the archaeology and the heritage of a site we excavated that's thousands of years old.

So, we can see that everywhere across the world.

So it's a unique perspective that as an archaeologist, we get to like have a little chuckle of like, oh yeah, we think we've developed something so modern, but it's just a product of being a human.

Yes, yes, it's an evolution.

I've thought of that before, like, if the cup wasn't designed as a cup a million years ago, would our cups look different now?

You know, if that very first one was different.

Um, if the early flight didn't look like the planes they look like now, would they look totally different?

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Would we have come up with something else?

But, yeah, I mean, it's such a, it's a unique opportunity.

Every time I'm in the Middle East, I encounter something new, or some, you know, different type of food, or a different type of music or something like that that has meaning.

It means something, and the stories behind what it means and why it is what it is are so unique to every place that you're in.

And I think with the Middle East especially, sometimes people think of it as like a monolith, like, oh, it's just the Middle East, it's full of Arabs who are all the same.

And just like anywhere, there's just like a diverse group of people and cultures and experiences that are all so incredibly unique and particular to the place.

For me, it's better than working somewhere that I'm used to working because I get to experience like every visit something completely new that shapes like the direction in which I do my work.

So, lucky me.

Yeah, that sounds amazing.

Yeah, um, I get, you know, a lot of people we have on the show, Nic or I both get a little jealous of like, wow, that sounds like good work.

Yeah, yeah. No one's complaining about being an archaeologist.

You know, no one's complaining about getting to go to places that they've never been before and experience these amazing things.

So, yeah, we're not complaining about our job for sure.

Right.

And then, let's see, we have a segment called #FieldNotes.

It's a part of our show where we ask people to send us their memorable moments doing the work in the field.

It's one of the things that connects all of us as environmental professionals, and so we ask people to share their funny, scary, awkward, or just memorable story so we can read them on future episodes.

And you can go to EnvironmentalProfessionalsRadio.com and submit it in our form there.

But Angela, do you have a moment in the field that comes to mind?

Oh gosh, there's so many. I feel like every professional who's in some type of fieldwork has loads of good stories.

I think I was doing fieldwork in Kazakhstan, in the middle of nowhere in Kazakhstan.

And I was thinking, where are we gonna sleep? How are we gonna bathe? Like, what is this gonna look like?

And, um, the local archaeologist that we had worked with had kind of dug out this, you know, what is like a traditional kind of underground, you know, bath, makeshift bathhouse type thing.

Where, you know, you get in there with some really steaming hot water and, you know, you wash yourself in this kind of underground covered bunker of like heat.

And um, I was in there and like, you know, the local woman who's in there with you, she's beating me with birch branches because that's just the way it's done.

And then I exit out of this thing after kind of feeling like I've been in, you know, a crazy high temperature of steam and heat and being beat by a birch branch in the best way possible.

And, like, I exit out of there onto, like, the plains of Kazakhstan under moonlight.

And like, you can't see, there's nothing for as far as the eye can see.

And I remember just thinking like, OK, I'm never going to experience this again.

I'm never going to be in this, you know, in the middle of nowhere in Kazakhstan under the moonlight being beaten by a birch branch to bathe to get into the field the next day.

And like, I need to savor this moment. I really need to remember this moment.

There's gonna be a day where I'm on like day 100 sitting in front of my computer writing another report where I'm gonna be wishing I was, you know, on the plains of Kazakhstan.

So yeah.

Oh, that's really interesting. That's cool. Very good story.

And then lastly, we ask people what kind of things they do for fun when they're not working.

Right. Well, I have a 6 year old, so a lot of my life revolves around little kid things, right?

I do a lot of swim lessons. I do a lot of soccer games.

But, yeah, I love to camp and hike and do outdoorsy things. Probably not surprising.

Um, so I spend, yeah, I spend a lot of time outside.

It's hard in Las Vegas. You have to pick your battles, like not in the 120 degree heat.

But living back in the Great Basin, it's a very unique place where you can hit mountains and deserts and everything in between.

So, I'm lucky that there are a lot of amazing things around me. Zion and California is not too far away.

So, yeah, outdoor stuff is always the preference.

Awesome. Yeah, it was a great area to kind of have a home base in.

And um, lastly, we're running out of time, so is there anything you'd like to mention or talk about that we didn't get to?

No, go visit Saudi Arabia. It's amazing.

I hear you. Where can people get in touch with you?

On LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn under Angela Perri. I'm there.

Perfect.

Well, this has been a lot of fun and I learned a lot, so thank you for joining us today.

Great. Thanks, Laura.

That's our show.

Thank you, Angela, for joining us today.

Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday.

Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.

Bye.