Protecting the High Seas, Teaching the Next Generation of Leaders, and Growing Up Where Conservation is Everyday Life with Jeremy Raguain

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Jeremy Raguain, Seychellois conservationist, Italy-AOSIS Fellowship Director, and owner of Out of the Shell Solutions Seychelles about Protecting the High Seas, Teaching the Next Generation of Leaders, and Growing Up Where Conservation is Everyday Life.  Read his full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
1:26 - Island Living
6:02 - Interview with Jeremy Raguain begins
13:55 - Italy-AOSIS Fellowship
26:13 - What makes a good fellow
30:41 - #Fieldnotes with Jeremy!

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Jeremy Raguain at linkedin.com/in/jeremy-raguain-a0b8b1bb

Guest Bio:
Jeremy Raguain is a Seychellois conservationist working with the Alliance of Small Island States (AOSIS) as the Director of the Italy-AOSIS Fellowship. 

In addition to being an alumnus of this fellowship (2022) he is also an alumnus of Columbia University's Masters of Public Administration in Environmental Science and Policy (2024), which builds on a Bachelor of Social Science in International Relations (Honours) and Environmental Geographical Sciences from the University of Cape Town. Before rejoining AOSIS, Jeremy worked as a Senior Programme Officer for the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) at its Eastern and Southern African Regional Office, supporting 11 African states in ratifying and implementing the BBNJ Agreement, a subject matter on which he publishes peer-reviewed research. 

Jeremy has served as the Climate Change and Ocean Advisor for the Seychelles Permanent Mission to the UN, coordinated projects and communications, as well as contributed to Seychelles' national environmental policy through several positions at the Seychelles Islands Foundation and is the Owner of Out of the Shell Solutions Seychelles, a consultancy providing services related to environmental policy, communications and project Management.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Nic and I talk about island life. We interviewed Jeremy Raguain about protecting high seas, teaching the next generation of leaders, and growing up where conservation is everyday life. And finally, the Seychelles are a group of islands known as the world's only mid-oceanic granite islands, which means they are not made by volcanic rock. They have the native Coco demur palm, which produces the largest and heaviest seeds in the world, and go check out a photo, amusingly enough, it is shaped like a human pelvis, and last but not least, it was also once a pirate hideout famously linked to French pirate Olivier Lavasseur. How about that? 

Hit that music!

This year, NAEP is hosting their annual conference and training symposium in Anchorage, Alaska from Monday, May 11th through Thursday, May 14th. The conference is a great opportunity to learn about new projects, share technical knowledge, network with other industry professionals, and engage with environmental leaders. Not a member yet? Join NAEP with special discount code EPR for $25 off your membership. Register now at www.NAEP.org. 

Let's get to our segment!

I mean, have you ever, would you live on an island? Would I live on an island? How big is the island? A fairly small island, like one that feels like an island, you know, like, let's say the big island. Oh, I mean, it's wonderful. Honestly, I think it depends like access to mainland areas, you know, it's like and it depends if my family is there, right? So family and friends are there, then it's much easier to say yes, and then you get used to island life and what that means. Big Island is still pretty big. I guess it's not small, and it is fun to drive around and has like this otherworldly feel to it, you know, where it's like it feels like you're on like Mars or something. I don't know. I think it's, you know, between of the Hawaiian Islands that that one's really cool. Oh gosh, they're all so good anyways, but I, I don't know, like I think that the hard part for me would be getting restless, cause I, I get restless anyway, and, you know, if you grow up on the east coast like I did, where I did, you know, it's like within. 4 hours where I am right now, within 4 hours, there's like 10 major cities, 10, and it's like every on your if you're on 95, every exit is a city, and that's really strange to go from that to like nothing, and it's great to do for a time, you know, I've been to the Amazon and that was wonderful and amazing. I don't wanna live there, but it was great to get away from it, you know, but I don't know, I think I would struggle with it a little bit. I think, I feel like I would, especially if it's, it's expensive to. And you can't like just, oh, I'll just buy a gallon of milk for $10 or whatever, but, you know. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I was talking to my friend Jess who's been to Seychelles a couple of times, you know, our guest is from Seychelles, and yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh, we should go, she's like, it's very expensive, like, oh yeah, it would be, I guess, you know, and Hawaii is very expensive, but aside from that, I think like when I picture Jeremy growing up on the island in Seychelles, it's like, I picture Swiss Family Robinson, which sounds very romantic, very, you know, I'm sure like over idealized. You know, like this beautiful island childhood, but I mean, clearly it's no for me. My choice was New York City. Yeah, I was about to say that's kind of the opposite, but I'm, well, it's having experience, like my experience with islands is mostly Hawaii, right? You know, I've been several times, but Oahu is kind of like New York City Pacific. 

That's how I describe it to people. It's like it has 5th Avenue, that's what Waikiki Beach is. And you can get out and away from it, but it is, it is a city, it's a big city in the Pacific, but, you know, it's interesting. I think people go there all the time with that idealized mentality like, oh this is gonna be a great, wonderful place, and most people don't stay longer than a year or two when they move to Hawaii, and most of the time it's because of how expensive, you know, property in particular is really, really expensive, uh, because there's just not that much of it. The real estate's very limited, you know. So that changes like how you would live anyway, right? So, I think that's the hardest part for me. Yeah, I think for me it's just repetition. I need new places, new spaces, new things. When I was in Syracuse, you know, I was there for longer than I think I needed to stay, and it, a lot of the reason I felt I needed to leave was just because it's the same 4 restaurants all the time, and I'm like, I need more than this. Yeah, yeah, and it's like this really funny push, push, pull, and I think I love that we're having this conversation as environmental professionals, right, because so much of what we love is. Outdoors. So much of what we love is nature, and we're both, I think, very like city bugs, you know, too, and like I love being in the DC area because it has all of these options, and one of the things I missed about living here was food, and like food is very, very important, but it's really more the experience, right? Like there's even, even going to a restaurant that's just noisy sometimes is nice, and like the buzz and the hubbub of that, and you don't get that all the time, depending on where you are, so. Yeah, it's kind of a challenge. I think it's, that would be hard for me to live on an island, especially a small island, it would be tough, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it, so. Yeah, I think if you love it, you know, Mary Lou Flores and I are still friends. She was on the show last year. She's, you know, was just telling us about the house. I don't think it was even finished at the time that they built in the Bahamas. And, you know, there's been storms that have come through since then that she's had to like arrange and, you know, it comes with some logistical things, like, if you get sick, if you need care, like she's gotta get to the mainland all the time, so there's, you know, things are, I guess convenient a level of convenience that you're maybe going to sacrifice, but I could see myself maybe retiring to an island when I get tired of, yeah, of this life, but for now it's just, I love to visit. Yeah, exactly, that's how I feel too, so. Let's see, so I guess maybe we're not going to shay shells yet, but one day, so totally. 

Let's get to our interview!

Welcome back to EPR. Today we are joined by Jeremy Raguain, a Seychellois conservationist, Italy Oasis Fellowship director at the Alliance of Small Island States, and owner of Out of the Shell Solutions Seychelles. Welcome, Jeremy. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, we're super excited to have you here cause Nic and I love to travel and we love exotic places, and I think you're the first person I've met who was from the Seychelles. So, like, let's start there. What was it like growing up there and how did that shape your worldview on conservation and things? Yeah, I'm 31 and, you know, I'm a May baby from Africa's smallest country by population, Seychelles, so, you know, you look at a map, you've got to keep scrolling a little bit until you actually see the islands. So we're a little bit just north of Madagascar, kind of east of Kenya. And I think, you know, I, my mum's an artist, my father's a farmer, so I grew up with a lot of nature. I mean, it's 115 islands spread over. Uh, ocean territory, an economic exclusive zone of about 700,000 square miles or about 1.3 billion square kilometers, so about the land mass of South Africa, and we're only 100,000 people, you know, really spread out on three main islands. So, yeah, growing up there, you know, being born and raised, it's one of those things where you kind of take it for granted. 

You kind of have stories of going to the ocean and seeing turtles, seeing sharks, being able to grow up with, you know, uh, fruit bats that have a wingspan of almost, you know, 5 ft plus. So you kind of, I don't know what to call it, but this is islands, right? I think you. Feel very in a time capsule almost, and you know, it's only been about, uh, 250 years, 300 years that there's been human settlement, so it's been very pristine for that reason, but also because of a strong amount of, you know, government and NGO conservation works, like 50% of our terrestrial area is protected, now 30% of our oceans protected and. Yeah, I kind of say, you know, my trajectory's been one where growing up there it's been shifted by global events, whether it's the 2008 financial crisis or 9/11 or COVID, there's all these different impacts. And as the son of an artist, you kind of see, you know, it's tourism that we depend on, so you kind of get that connection of what happens in the world affects us in that way, but also on things. Climate change or plastic pollution, you kind of see these impacts slowly get to us as well. So, yeah, my career has been one where, you know, when I think about my country, think about its future, I find nature and its people to be really, really big part of what I do today. That's really awesome. And then, so where did you get your start? Was it in school or did you branch out and, and learn about conservation careers in some other way? Yeah, I, I have to say, you know, it's really unfair what they do to kids in the sense of asking them to choose something, uh, in our case, you know, we, we follow the English system of A-levels. So by 16, they're like, you know, narrow it down, figure out what you want. And I can really say, you know, I was very much a, a reader, like history, English, economics, I guess to some extent was there, but I was really lucky enough to have a great biology teacher, and I also thought biology would be great. This was not good for the amount of reading I had to do. Everything was a lot of reading, but it really allowed me to get what was gonna be kind of a job during my gap year. 

So I did about 4 months with our Ministry of. Foreign Affairs. And then I did about 7 months with what is a, you know, truly life changing experience, not just for Seoa, but for, you know, people all around the world. This is such a small group of people that have been there. So we have this UNESCO World Heritage site, Aldabra Atoll, and it's about 1100 kilometers from Mahe, the main island of Seychelles. So it takes about 3 or 4 days by boat or 3.5 hours by plane. Madagascar is actually closer to it. Um, it was meant to be turned into a Royal Air Force military base, similar to Diego Garcia in a sense, uh, which is also in our region, but it was saved because of its biodiversity. So I spent 7 months out there. And so I'd say, you know, my parents being very nature, very, you know, farming, art, taking me on hikes, taking me fishing, snorkeling, having that biology A level. And then spending 7 months in a place that, you know, David Attenborough or Jacques Cousteau or, you know, to this day, so many amazing people talk about, you know, it set me on a trajectory. So by the time I finished my gap year, I, um, took on environmental science as well as international relations, and those things have really always worked for me. I studied at the University of Cape Town in South Africa, so, you know, by, 2014 to 2017, I was living in South Africa for that and came back to Seychelles and rejoined the Seychelles Islands Foundation, which manages this UNESCO site and another UNESCO skite, Vadyme, and spent about five years with them. So that's kind of, you know, the way in which I got brought into the conservation world, I would say. That's amazing, and you, you mentioned that you live in New York now. So why would you ever leave? Many from the states in and in New York. Why would you leave? And people would say this to me, uh, when I moved from Florida too, so I get, no, I mean, especially in winter, you ask yourself these questions. Um, I, I, I think it's twofold. I think there's like personal life. My wife is American. We met in South Africa actually. And I would say, I always look at her and be like, why are we here actually? So, um, you know, there's that element of things. 

And I think the second part of it, especially around career, is working on Aldabra, working in Seychelles. You really realize, you know, you can kind of come up with the policy, you can kind of come up with the action to kind of manage things or mitigate things where they hit you as an organization, as. Protected area as a country, but you're never really dealing with the source of things. And, you know, I think New York, New York City, but, you know, many different cities around the world, they tend to be more of the sources, and especially when you think about global environmental problems. So this has been a big issue for me to kind of come out. When I was working on Seychelles Islands Foundation, I was realizing that whether we're talking about climate change or plastic pollution. It doesn't start where we are. We might be somewhat of a contributor, but it's usually below 0.1% of whatever we're talking about as a, as a global issue. So, especially in these times now, looking back, you know, multilateralism is this amazing feat for humanity. It's something we should aspire to be able to do, but it's super challenging, no, no, no need to explain maybe now how challenging it is, but super challenging, and I had the opportunity in 2022 actually to apply for this Alliance of Small Island States fellowship. And so, you know, applying for this, it was a chance to really understand, OK, I have this on the ground experience. I know what Seychelles and other small island developing states are facing when it comes to climate issues, when it comes to ocean issues and sustainable development. And so I was able to really bring that, you know, experience, but also my background in international relations and be based at the Seychelles missions to the UN. And, you know, through the Alliance of Small land States, which represents, you know, 39 states, 37 UN member states coming from the Pacific, coming from the Caribbean, the Atlantic, Indian Ocean, South China Seas, and, you know, since the 90s, we've been coming together as, you know, small countries. We collectively make about 65 million people. 

So, being based at the UN working with AOSIS, working with our mission, I was able to take on not just climate change issues, but also ocean issues like the biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. Agreement and at times talk about really security and financial issues. I remember voting within the UN General Assembly on behalf of Seychelles on matters relating to the integrity of the UN Charter and the territorial integrity of Ukraine. So yeah, it's been an incredible time. So since 2022, I've been in the international environmental law space while also thinking and doing my best to be. Involved underground as much as possible. Awesome, you sound really busy in some really cool things. Um, so as you're, you currently direct the Italy Oasis Fellowship at the Alliance of Small Island States, which you were just mentioning. So tell us more about that work, current projects you're working on, things you're excited about. Yeah, no, it's a great opportunity for me because it's a really full circle kind of moment. So in 2022 I was a fellow, I'm an alumni now. And the fellowship is really a one of its kind partnership between the Alliance of Small land States and the government of Italy. So since 2015, the European Union and now Italy has been funding this program, and in the past it brought about 4 or 3 or 4 fellows from different parts of, you know, the regions of Somaliland different states, so from the Caribbean, Pacific and Indian Ocean, Atlantic, and such. Now, since 2022, since They've been bringing 10 small island developing states, early career professionals, so maybe they have a background in law or environmental science like I did, or diplomacy and other aspects. And the idea is you really get that exposure to the UN system, to negotiations, and you get to understand your national interests, your regional interests, the way the globe is working or not working, I should say, at times, and you get a chance to really bring a lot of, I mean, from the basics of, you know, adding an extra person, I mean our missions to the UN and they sometimes serve as the embassy to the US or to Canada and other places. They usually are no more than 6 people, maybe 10 people, and there are so many things to do. So immediately you're being given responsibilities and pushed into a place where you have to grow, you have to really, I would say, fight for your country's interests at times in a smart way and, and, you know, in a diplomatic way. So, you know, these fellows, we have another batch coming in this year. It's great to, you know, this is my first. 

The year that I'm a director, so I'm working with amazing people like Mr. Bryce Roderick, who's a legal advisor for AOSIS, who's been a director for a while, and, you know, we're really running them through the calendar of events that are taking place here at the UN. In fact, the big one tomorrow when we're, in terms of when we're talking about it, but also two weeks back from this recording, the Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Agreement enters into. For, I mean, this is a landmark agreement that has been negotiated for the last 20+ years and will help the world conserve and sustainably use areas beyond national jurisdictions, which is 2/3 of the world's oceans or almost half of the planet's surface. So, you know, you're bringing these people who are usually between 25 to 32 into these negotiations and, um, you know, really taking a, a chance. To see what they already know and bring it in even further if possible. Yeah, so it's a great segue into talking about the BB and J agreement, which really is a big landmark thing. So I want to kind of talk through how this came to be. This seems really challenging. This seems really difficult in lots of different ways. I'm not even sure where you could take this question, but how hard was it to get it to where it is now? Yeah, I think with international law, and I think it's important to realize that everything's a history and the politics, the science that's needed, all this is a history to it. And I think if you're going to talk about a biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction agreement, you have to start with the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, which is, you know, about 45 or so years now. And UNCLOS, as it's known, or law of the seas, is really this constitution for when we're talking about the oceans. So when we're talking about states having territorial seas and waters or economic exclusive zones, that's what set it up. And I think beyond that, we've seen things like what is known as the 1994 agreement or, you know, the Part 11 of UNCLOS, which deals with deep seabed mining. We've also seen the fish. Stocks agreement, 1995 agreement.

 These are very much, I would say, extractive or commercially focused endeavors of dealing with areas beyond national jurisdiction, right? This 200 nautical miles from a state's coastline. And so, you know, we've only been thinking extractive in a sense, I think. And although these are previous agreements, there's other bodies like regional fisheries management. Organizations and such. Although they do have responsibilities around protection and sustainable use of the ocean, there wasn't anything like we're talking about the BBNJ. So states really understood that, you know, we need to create something and, you know, really by a lot of various experts and, you know, people coming from civil society, it might be worth noting there's a doctor, Christina Gerde, who sadly in the BBNJ community. He uh lost her not too long ago at the end of 2025, but people like her and so many others were able to really start these conversations in the early 2000s and really grow the space to say, hey, when we're talking about this international waters, when we're talking about how we're going to manage them, we really need to be thinking about how it's gonna really benefit for the long-term, how it's gonna really, for the intrinsic value. Of that nature that's there. We need to not just look at the shipping; we're not just looking at the fisheries. There needs to be a focused, uh, view on here. So, I think that's important to kind of say UNCLOS is the mother or, you know, the parent of the BBNJ and the BBNJ is almost the latest sibling of UNCLOS's, you know, kids. And then going into the BBNJ itself and what it does, you know, a lot of people describe it as maybe 4 or 5 treaties in one. So there's these things like the probably one of the more complex parts of the agreements is the marine genetic resources. So we know sponges and other biodiversity, other life in the ocean may hold digital sequencing information when we sequence their DNA or other genetic material. We may find pharmaceutical products, or you know, medical products that could have huge benefits, not just financial and monetary, but also for cures to cancer, cures to other diseases that we might find. We don't know, and we still have a long way to go here, but the idea is this agreement looks at that and says, actually that's the common heritage of humankind. This is a global common. We should equitably share that. 

And that's a very brief summary of that part. There's another part where I think where a lot of conservationists get quite excited about it and I think we should very much be excited about it because we're talking about the creation of area-based management tools, which is a more inclusive term for what people might also known as marine protected areas. I mean, it will include more than just marine protected areas in that definition, but it's one where, you know, if we're going to get to the Cumin Montreal Global biodiversity framework's target 3, that 30 by 30. If we're talking about half the world's surface, 2/3 of the, you know, this areas beyond national jurisdiction has incredibly important spots that need that kind of protection. Currently today, only about 1.2%, actually less than that, of the areas beyond national jurisdiction are protected. So that's mostly in Antarctica and in somewhat arguably within the northeast Atlantic, and we don't really have any other protections there as far as. As I can tell, that has come up so strongly in terms of real protections. And I think, you know, that's one other part that for us as small island developing states, but we also see ourselves as big ocean states, right? As I was saying, we have a, an ocean territory the size of South Africa. We border these areas beyond national jurisdiction. We will be very crucial in thinking about our ports, our people, our experience. With a marine protection in terms of trying to find these places and maintain these places. Beyond area-based management tools and marine protected areas, there's also an environmental impact assessments. 

This is something, you know, EIA's, a lot of people might be familiar with the national jurisdiction, but these are things that need to happen when we're thinking about new developments within not only the international waters, but also in our own national waters because. We know fish or currents don't really see those lines, right? So what is taking place maybe 50 miles in your ocean might still affect something that's, you know, 100 miles away in a different, somebody else's ocean and or everybody's ocean, if I can put it that way. So the EIA process is something that is meant to be standardized. Lastly, I think you can look at it as the capacity building and transfer of marine technology. But I also bring in what I would call the means of implementation of the agreement, so that also includes the finance. All of that is really enabling countries like Seychelles or other African countries that don't necessarily have the means to already do a lot of the work in our own ocean. To be able to do the, to live up to the aims of the BBNJ agreement, which is conserve and sustainable use of the areas beyond national jurisdiction. So, you know, there's a lot there and I, I try, and I try and compress it, but that's it's the elements of the BBNJ. Yeah, and it's going to be, uh, well, I guess by the time everyone hears this, it will be in effect, was there opposition to this development? Are there internal and external challenges with getting it to where it is now? Yeah, I mean, you know, I entered the scene in 2022. By then, you know, two decades had passed in negotiations, and, you know, Article 5 of the agreement and Article eight of the agreement are quite interesting when you speak about opposition. And there's some other parts, but this is really something we talk about not undermining. In international law, you know, there's a lot of things you're not trying to undermine. I mean, principle for every state is their sovereignty and what they're meant to survive and economics or security wise, but that also is an interesting one when you're thinking about the kind of instruments we've already created. So again, like the deep sea bed mining or fisheries agreements, we don't want this thing to come in and say oh states would never allow something to come in and, you know, completely take away their rights there, or, you know, undermine these organizations that exist. 

So I think because of so much has already happened international law wise, but also in the sea. The BBNJ had to kind of navigate through that opposition quite well, and I sometimes compare it a little bit to the plastics, which is maybe not so fair, but sometimes it has to take a while. Sometimes things just have to take a while because you have to push back and forth between some countries. For instance, one memory. The event that I have that is a little PTSD style is negotiating in 2023 in March for the final text of the agreement. We were on, you know, these things are two weeks long, usually. They're meant to go from officially 10:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., but you have meetings that start from 7:00 a.m. and end at 8:00 p.m. But negotiations and running out the clock is something that happens. So, on the Thursday of the second week, I know we ended discussions on marine genetic resources as the African group. At 4 a.m. and the next day we had to be at the UN, you know, some of us are taking cabs, whatever, for about a half an hour back home or more, and then you have to be back in the UN, you know, pretty early, at least by 8:00 a.m. And so that Friday again, we were scheduled to end at 6:00 p.m. We didn't end negotiations till Saturday night, so we had about 36 hours straight of negotiations through that, and I think, you know, that had come after the previous rounds of negotiations ended in, I would inverted quote called failure. 

And I think that's something people don't understand. Sometimes when something's not agreed, there's a lot of reasons, right? There's, there's pushback internally. There's a lot of things there. So that's kind of context of the international level. Now we're in a stage where in September 19th, 60 countries had uh ratified the agreement. That's a domestic process, right? Being able to take it back home and say this is now part of our domestic law, maybe you bring it to your legislator and, and executives, your parliament or whatever, get it through. And, you know, we're in a case where there's about 145 countries that have signed this agreement and about 82, if I'm not mistaken, Ghana and Qatar just did it in early January now, or mid-January, and, you know, we're in a place where we're trying to get as many countries on board. But each country has to think, is this a priority? I mean, if you're a landlocked country, how do you explain this is a priority, right? There are reasons to do that, but it's a bit more harder than maybe if you're a big ocean state like Seychelles. So there's a lot of challenges there, if I can leave it at that, yeah. Well, I mean, it, it's decades in the making, so of course there have to be some, and I think it's really fascinating and fantastic that we've gotten to where we are. And one of the things we like to do on the show is talk about how people can connect and how you can get engaged. So yeah, I kind of want to wrap up this discussion on it, asking how, like what would you tell young people who are interested in being involved and engaged in that kind of venture and avenue? Like what do you look for in your fellows, for example? I think it's curiosity. I think curiosity is always gonna be something that delivers, and I think in a world where AI is maybe creating slop or writing for you, I think being able to ask the right questions of it, but also then go and write it out for yourself and talk to people, there's no replacement in getting out there. I mean, I think the only time I've engaged really with areas beyond national jurisdiction is when I'm on a plane looking down at an ocean. So trying to get out there is super hard. Very few of us actually get that chance unless you're a fisher or, you know, somebody who works on a shipping vessel or something like that. 

So, but it's possible and that might be something people are interested, especially those, you know, sailors and otherwise. But I think curiosity is key, and then I would say mentorship, right? What I try and say and having had an experience of negotiation with the climate, this moment for me feels like with the entry into force is almost like there's a ground floor of a building. Now, the last 20 years. Negotiations, it's almost like 2 floors of basement, and I will never be able to get to that basement, but I've talked to people who've started in that basement to understand the foundations. Some of them are going to be with us for some while longer, not all of them are going to be with us forever. But I think in your own country, in your region, talking to them, getting them, you know, knowledge is critical because over the next years, as the first COP happens, which needs to take place before the 17th of January 2027. That's the first floor being built, and there'll be more, and as you have COP 31 now of the climate, you kind of get to that point and you're like, whoa, I don't necessarily understood what the last 30 years has looked like. And I, you know, I think we need to really understand that it's a lifelong, slow glacial thing sometimes, but there are moments that we can move quite fast. And I think as conservationists, as people in the environment, I think we also have to be quite holistic. It's very important to think of this agreement as, as a package deal. All these 4 elements or 5 elements, depending on how you look at it, are all equally balanced. It's, it's like a chair, you know, if one leg is shorter than the other, we're going to fall over. So as much as we want to get excited about, you know, 30 by 30, we know that if we don't have capacity building transfer of marine technology, countries won't be able to implement this agreement. 

So I think that's something is, you know, going into it is important, but. Yeah, plenty more to, to add there over LinkedIn or an email if people want to chat about it. That's great. Those are some great analogies tossed in there. And before we move on to sort of the end of our show, I would like to ask you more about what is out of the shell solution, Seychelles, because we talked before the show that obviously, you're maintaining purposefully, intentionally taking some focus on Seychelles since you are from there and grew up there and have a, a special connection. So, what is out of the shell solutions, Seychelles, and what do you do and hope to do with that? No, thanks for the questions. I think on that one, it's, it's really a case that I've always done a lot of pro bono work for Seychelles as a youth volunteer. I was part of the Sustainable Ocean Alliance. I was also somebody who did the World Economic Forum's Global Shapers. I've also, before this role was of the International Union for Conservation of Nature. And I think what we need to understand is, you know, consultancies or volunteering, sometimes there's a big overlap there, and I'm still doing work in Seychelles that's quite pro bono around climate literacy, really working with some friends to mainstream climate change in the national curriculum. But what out of cell solutions kind of does for me is allow me to then really keep a stake in my country. So for instance, right now, Seychelles is going through the uh process of domesticating the BBNJ agreement, and that's a vehicle for me to ensure that my livelihood is also secured in this agreement working for my country. So, it's one step there, but I think for me it's really a case of saying, hey, we need to one, own the solutions ourselves, but it's always out of the box for me. I'm, I'm someone who's dyslexic. Toxic in a sense, and, you know, other elements that are going on. So I've always looked at things a little bit differently. So, my view is to try and reimagine some of the problems and challenges we have. Again, from my perspective in Seychelles. And sometimes, you know, it's very important in a world where there may be parachute science or parachute consultancies for us to really ensure that we do give, you know, voluntarily to the causes we need, but that we also make sure we can really ensure that we have that kind of legitimacy and. And compensation required when the work is needed, so that's kind of my start there as well. Awesome. Well, great to see you doing that, and I, I'm excited about this. 

We have a segment called #Field Notes. It's the part of a show where we talk to our guests about memorable moments doing the work in the field. We like to hear funny, scary, awkward types of field stories, sometimes all rolled up into one. And uh if you have one, if you're listening and you have a story like that, we would really love to share it on the show. You can send it to us at info@environmentalprofessionalsradio.com, and I think there's a form on the website to make it super easy for you. And so Jeremy, you mentioned everything to Marley, you mentioned that you have everything from a near death experience and a coconut crab crawling on your leg. I'm sure you have hundreds of stories growing up in sort of a natural environment. So is there anything, one or two that come to mind you'd like to share? Yeah, the coconut crab is quite a story. For context, I was with a team of about 12 volunteers collecting marine plastic pollution that had ended up on, on Aldabra. It's a beautiful place, but it's a harsh environment, and, and islands, you know, have this phenomenon of gigantism, right? You know, things are kind of left alone and they get big. And we have giants. This is like, you know, are about 500 pounds, they're cool, they move slowly, not an issue. But there's also these robber crabs or coconut crabs, and I really advise anybody to Google them. People might be familiar in the Pacific otherwise, but they're the largest terrestrial kind of crabs, so they're about 5 kgs, up to 5 kg's, which is, I think about 10 pound crabs. Um, and so, you know, when we were cleaning up Aldabra for this, this big cleanup project, we would go to these tents that are, you know, these camps that don't have running water, they just have something that's on top of the roof collecting. They don't really have electricity apart from, you know, batteries you're bringing, very basic, basic living, and again, that's to protect the island really. It also means that the structure doesn't prevent things from getting in. Um, so you have mosquito nets which actually double up as a way to ensure that coconut crabs, who are looking for something to, to nibble on, don't get into your bedding. I guess that night we were working pretty long hours throughout the day. It's, it's in a harsh environment, but you're pretty knocked out. By the, by 7 p.m. you're knocked out. Um, I awoke, I don't know what time it was, too. 

A fairly large coconut crab, I would say a good 6 pounder, 7 pounder, making its way just past my knee towards me. And it really was that moment of shock horror where it's in the dark, you know, you, you, there's about 3 or 4 other people in the room. And you're just looking down there and you're like, what is this coming towards me? Oh my God, it's this thing. You know, they've got huge pincers, all yeah. So, um, yeah, that was a shock, and I have to say I had, I had to just react and get out of there. I mean, all, all of the, uh, you know, coconut crabs are protected, any animal's protected. What I did the next night was essentially sleep on top of the shelter. I was like, I don't know how I got through my mosquito net, I'm not taking any more chances. Um, but these things climb, so, you know, it's its own horror story kind of, but uh it came out of that unscathed. Um, I have like a cockroach once literally crawl across my face while I was sleeping that I thought was terrifying. No, I'm wrong. That's so much, so much scarier. Uh, yeah, I'm just trying to even picture a crab that large to begin with, and um, yeah, so, well, you survived, yay. And all right, so we're very getting very near to the end of our show. There's another project you're working on that is more about the history of the Seychelles. Is that something you want to talk about? Sure, Seychelles is an amazing place. We actually celebrate our 50th years of, you know, independence in, in the 29th of June this year. So that's, that's a huge thing. I, I know with the US as well, we're, we're kind of competing for some anniversaries here. Um, but it's quite interesting because I think, you know, we have a great conservation legacy. I mean, there's people like. 

The Cadbury's who helped establish protected areas like Aldabra, I mean, including worldwide, WWF, the Royal Society and the Smithsonian, there's a huge history there about how well we've done conservation, but, It's important to realize Seychelles does have a bit of a darker side, a little bit of a political history that is quite, uh, violent in a sense, and we didn't speak about that growing up. We kind of only learned about piracy, which is very cool, about slavery to some extent, global history, but then recent history, you know, we don't talk about the one-party state that existed, the kind of coup d'etat and. Other things that are there, so, with some friends and again through my, you know, consultancy out of the cell Solutions, which has a focus on environmental work, I'm still thinking about that history for Seychelles because if you don't know yourself completely, it's hard to kind of go forward in the world. So I'm working with some friends to try and create at least a script for a pilot episode. To kind of get us into what was this history about, maybe from the 70s, get into the 80s, maybe beyond. Try and make a series that explains that story because even now, you know, just another point, we're in Seychelles with a huge development that's just been put on pause on Assumption Island, which is next to Aldabra, and this is a history of islands being sold or leased for 99 years with, you know, the kind of characters here are the same royal family from Qatar that, you know, is involved in the Trump administration, if I can put it that way. And so, you know, and right now there's a huge commission that is unprecedented talking about this, bringing to light that due process wasn't followed, environmental impacts assessments wasn't followed. And there has been issues, right? So again, being able to unpack that democratic history or, you know, this truth, this reconciliation, national unity history that we have also speaks a lot to the environment. You can see there's a lot of that culture that needs to be coming out here. 

So I don't know, through talking about this history, making it not just a book, but also something people can watch, I hope it connects people to the country in a, in a meaningful way. That's the hope there. Yeah, that's very interesting, it's very great. I hate that we're at the end of our time. We covered a ton, and there's so much more I want to ask you, but before we let you go, is there anything else you'd like to say? No, I think it's been a great pleasure to have you guys here. I think this is an interesting year for multilateralism and environmental, not just law, but action really. I think we need to always think about action. So as we proceed for this year, it's great to know there's this community and I'm glad that we've had this chat. I'm looking forward to. The year, even though it's a tough one. Yeah, thank you very much. And last but not least, if anyone does want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, on LinkedIn, I'm always a message away, so my LinkedIn is my name, Jeremy Raguain. And then my, my email for out of the cell solutions and any other personal enquiries is Jeremy JEREMY_RAGUAIN at outlook.com. And yeah, always happy to have a chat with people, especially BB and Jay otherwise, doing some research there, doing some work there, so always keen. Very cool, thank you so much. Thank you. That's our show. Thank you, Jeremy, for joining us today. 

Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. Bye. See you, everybody!