Zero Waste, Sustainability Job Types, and Trash Walkers with Ushma Pandya

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Ushma Pandya, co-founder and partner at Think Zero about Zero Waste, Sustainability Job Types, and Trash Walkers.  Read her full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
1:58 - Nic & Laura talk Scams
8:48 - Interview with Ushma Pandya Starts
17:48 - Different type of Partnerships
29:14 - Sustainability as a growing field
34:20 - Fieldnotes with Ushma!

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Ushma Pandya at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ushmapandya/ 

Guest Bio:
Ushma is a co founder and Partner at Think Zero LLC, a zero waste advisory firm that works with companies on their sustainability goals related to waste.  

Ushma has had a lifelong interest in sustainability and waste reduction. Before the term "zero waste" was coined, she was raising awareness about consumption and waste with her schoolmates and work colleagues.  

Prior to launching Think Zero, Ushma held senior management roles with American Express, Booz & Co., and Katzenbach Partners. She has worked on environmental issues with organizations such as the Environmental Defense Fund, the Department of Environment of the City of Chicago, and Acumen.      

Ushma is a board member of the Sanitation Foundation, the nonprofit arm of the NYC DSNY, the Manhattan Solid Waste Advisory Board (MSWAB) and the NYC chapter of the New York League of Conservation Voters. She was previously on the Board of Sustainable South Bronx, where she oversaw the for-profit subsidiary Cool Roofs that worked on cooling and greening roofs throughout NYC.   In addition, she sits on the Environmental Protection Committee of Community Board 1, Manhattan.

Ushma holds degrees from Georgetown University, Columbia University and Harvard University. She is certified as a TRUE Zero Waste Business Associate by GBCI and a LEED Green Associate.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental enthusiasts, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Laura and I talk about scams. We interview Ushma Pandya about zero waste, sustainability job types, and trash walkers. And finally, since scams rhymes with clams, here are some fun facts about clams. Uh, they are part of the world's 2nd largest animal family with over 100,000 families in the mollusk family area. There's a better way to say that. They range in size from 2 millimeters, which, how do you even find that, to being 4 ft long, which, no thanks. Uh, yeah, and the giant clam can weigh 500 pounds. I don't want any part of that business, just FYI, and they are sequential hermaphrodites able to change their gender over the course of their lives. It's pretty wild stuff, so, uh, incredible lives of mollusks. Yeah, there you go. Who knew? Who knew? And the first largest animal species is family, uh, we think it's beetles. We'll confirm. I think it's beetles. Um, the most popular band. Oh man. 

Yeah, hit that music. 

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Let's get to our segment. So scams. We're talking about scams because, yeah, I mean, like, that's been my life this week. I'm moving apartments in New York City and I just think everything is a scam. And even, you know, I got an apartment and then I did not believe it was not a scam until I had the keys and was literally like sitting in it. And then I was still like, if I'm going to pull me out of here. Right, right, right, it's like just kidding, you'll come back and there'll be someone else that's already moved into the same apartment. Yeah, exactly. And then like the whole thing is just changed and you're like, am I in the right? Like I just felt like the universe was gaslighting me last night. Yeah, I know, and it's like I honestly I had the same, I had the same worry and fear with my townhouse and it's just like kind of like what? Like I think this is legit. I'm pretty sure this is legit, but like, you know, we're in this er sure part that's scary. Yeah, well, I'm like talking to a sweet old lady who's the mother-in-law of the person who owns the house, but I'm sending him the money and I'm like, is he gonna give me the keys? And then they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't worry, we'll talk to you soon, like sooner when we get close to when you move in, and I'm like, well that, you know, so for like two months I'm just like eyes wide open and every time I go to bed I'm just like. I hope it's still real. I hope it's still real. I hope it's still real, you know, because I don't have anywhere else to go, like that's it, you know, yeah, so that was stressful, but like it's funny because we were talking about scams and I actually had a friend of mine fall for a scam, like the scam, the credit card scam. And I don't, I did not know this was possible, but apparently. Yeah so who's falling for this?

And it's people who've never really interacted, I guess, with money and companies, as someone who was in their first job, as the first life experience really as in a working environment, and they got an email about needing to get target gift cards to purchase stuff for the party that they're gonna have. She did all these things, went through all these steps, had the credit card company decline her credit card only for her to call back. And say, no, no, I meant to purchase these, no, and you know, blew through every red flag there were and there were several, you know, including no announcement for a party, no one else at work talking about the party that this is gonna be for. There's so many. From the boss that they've never yet met not from the, yeah, exactly. And it's also not from them, you know, and it's funny because like that happened there, right? And that's a tough thing. It's a really cruel life lesson, as that's, that is, it was, it was a lot of money, you know, it's a lot of money to lose that young, but it happens in big companies too, and I wanna, I want to share one more story for you. One of my previous employers, there was a phishing scam that the CEO sent a letter out to every employee. Asking them to help them out by clicking on this link, right? It's literally like, hey, such and so, this is your CEO, you know, they had the name right, and they were like, please click on this link to like, you know, do something or other, right? And 99.9% of employees did not click on it. And if you have a 10,000 employee company. That's still someone's point of view that did click on it and so it ended up being a thing, but the company was shut down for a day to fix the problem. That's a huge loss. And so you wonder like why do companies, why do I have to watch this scam video? Why do I have to watch this thing over and over again? 

Who is falling for this? I'm telling you what happens. It happens all the time and it can happen to people who are just starting their careers or people who are midway through. There was somebody in my office that clicked on it who was like been in the industry for 20 years. There's no limit, rhyme or reason for when those things happen. That's why they're getting sophisticated too. Like there's been a couple that I've been a third of the way through and like, wait a minute. I know, but that's the thing, when you catch that second thought or the, you know, the hold on. Like you need to check, especially so if you're just starting your career and you think you got an email from the boss that wants to go do something and you're trying to win some points. Double check. Yeah, yeah, maybe look at what the email is. It's like, have I ever talked to this person before? Why would they email me out of the blue? Exactly. this in your job description? Yeah, there's lots of reasons for that not to be the case. I think actually now that we're here, my all time favorite scam that of all time that didn't happen, right, it got stopped, but Again, a friend of mine working at an unnamed university in the United States. gets an email from one of their professors and it's like, hey, how come you're trying to reroute my banking information, right? And this email had gone out to 40 professors, 39 of them complied. One was like this is weird. One of them was like, this is weird. What is this? And they were 4 hours away from all of their paychecks being routed to a foreign account. Wow, and never being able to see that money again. It is crazy how that happened. So there you go, it's everybody from like brand new first year employees to college professors can fall for scams. 

Totally. I mean, like I said, I feel like if I can fall for them and I have so much and it's not bragging, but I just have so much tech experience and so much just quote unquote common sense, I feel like anybody really could. You know, they're just they're getting that good because sometimes I'm looking for a while before I'm like, oh, there's the telltale. And the thing is, there's almost always a telltale, whether it's a wrong email or a name or the logo is not quite exactly the right logo or something like that. Yeah, there's also, but this is one of those situations though where I find chatGBT to be very helpful. Really? Yes, because you're talking about one scambot to another. Hey, is this real? Huh. I never thought. And it will tell you the red flags. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Oh, that's so weird. I need to, OK, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna find a scam. I need to find a scam right away next time you find a scam. As Chat CPT to help you see if it's real or not. Well, what if it lies to me and it is a scam, or what if it lies to me and it's not a scam. We haven't got to that future or that movie yet, I don't think. Yeah, golly, no, have you ever seen the movie Brazil? I don't know why this made me think of it. It's like a post, like, you know, one of those post-apo, it's not a post-apocalyptic world, it's like a dystopian society, right, in the future. And there is a fly that lands on a piece of paperwork and someone slams the flyswatter down, but that mark changes the name of the person that they're trying to find and put in jail. And so someone who's completely innocent and completely didn't do the thing is marked on paper as having done this. And so that's the whole movie basically is figuring out how to sort that out and it's, it's quite a wild thing, so I don't know, that's what it made me think of, that's where we are. Interesting. Well, before your mind wands too much further, let's get to our interview!

Welcome back to EPR. 

Today we have Ushma Pandya with us. Ushma is a co-founder and partner at ThinkZero, a waste reduction and diversion advisory firm. Ushma, it's great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Awesome. So tell us about Zero Waste and what is it and how you got into it? Absolutely. Well, I like to call myself a trash nerd or a trash lover. So Zero Waste is a, there is an actual definition by the Zero Waste International Alliance. So for your listeners, ZWIA.org would be a great website to check out. And they have a definition, which is 90% diversion. From landfill or incineration. So thinking about, if you're always throwing stuff into a bin that goes to land for landfill or incineration, your goal is to try to divert 90% of that using the, the waste hierarchy of either refusing, reducing, you know, composting, repairing, donating, recycling. And then the very last possible thing, if there's nothing else you can do, you might throw it into landfill or incineration. So 90% is that definition of what people are going for. And the work I do, I, I always try to get people to aspire to that, but I also like to say low waste, maybe not that zero waste definition, but better than what you did yesterday. Right. OK, awesome. And then, uh, co-founder and partner at Thinker. What is Think 0? So we're a waste reduction and diversion advisory firm. We work with companies on their sustainability goals, specifically related to waste. Definitely, we have found in the last 10 years, 10 or 15 years, there is a greater focus on consumption and what it is that we're throwing away. I think more people know about the topic, are kind of horrified by. the topic and want to do something about it. I think some of the social media posts around, you know, garbage in the oceans or the seahorse that was holding a Q-tip or the straw through the sea turtle's nose. I think those types of images, that's why communication or imagery can be so helpful. 

You know, really has created momentum around this idea of, hey, should we be having so many single-use items and should we Be throwing them away. And so companies are now looking at their own footprint, not only in what their operations are, so in their offices or factories, but also now starting to think about the products they make and the packaging that they use. And are those items disposable or reusable or extendable in life. And so we work with them specifically on that topic of garbage. We call ourselves the garbage ladies or the trash. I love it. And I feel like here in New York, I don't want to say I'm disappointed, but I am sometimes horrified and dismayed. Let's just go beyond disappointed by how much plastic every time I order something, there's so much eating out and grabbing things to go and popping into a bodega and grabbing something. And then they don't even ask you. They just, here you go. Here's your fork, here's your knife. And I have 10,000 of these at home because I can't throw them away. So are you, what are your solutions for things like that? Well, actually, here in New York City, the city council did pass a rule or a law, I'm not sure the right terminology called skip the stuff. Um, and the architect, actually, I think was Marle Rene. So, uh, she really helped to spearhead that movement. So it is a rule, and which means when you order takeout, they're not actually supposed to put all of those single use items into your takeout bag unless you specifically ask for it. So the first thing to do, if you're in New York City or anywhere where you're doing takeout or you're calling it in, is reminding The folks on the other end, Hey, I don't need any forks, knives, plates, utensils, straws, etc. I, if I pick up, am known to open the bag and return it to them. Right, right there. Here you go. I don't need. it. 

And I think that's like a first step in terms of that awareness. There are other things you can do if you are going out and about. I have a little to go kit. You can't eliminate everything, but you try to eliminate a few things. So I do have a fork, a knife. So if I buy something, I at least have the cutlery. I actually try to eat at places where I don't, you know, where I get something on a real dish or a cup, and I tend to frequent those. I have a little Google Maps thing in my phone where I like star or mark fast casual places that are, have real utensils and plates and cups. So that if I'm ever meeting anyone, I always say, do you mind if we meet at this coffee shop versus this coffee shop, right? Oh, you want something quick to eat? Do you mind if we eat this versus that? But it kind of sucks that it's the onus is on us, right, as a consumer, like, I just don't understand why we don't have it be the default. And I think that will all take policy and more energy and enthusiasm by consumers to educate businesses and say that's what we want. And those are the types of places we're frequenting. Right, exactly. And I feel like if I was a business owner, I wouldn't want to keep buying plastic cups and plastic forks and knives, if I could just have people bring their own. Like, I feel like maybe just society just needs everybody needs to bring their own, you know. Why do I need to bring my, like, you know, sometimes it gets a little. Ridiculous. I have a bag. I've just, you know, I have a coffee cup, I have a water bottle, I have my to go cup. And, I mean, my kids cringe. I even know if I'm like going to eat Thai food, I'm not gonna finish all the Thai food. So I bring a few jars. And then I do that too, actually. I learned that from a friend's aunt. And then I'm just like this person who has all this clinking stuff in this bag on my and it's like annoying. In New York City, it's not like I'm running from a car to a restaurant and back to my car. I'm taking that stuff down the subway, like, hitting someone as I'm trying to sit. So I just, I just think, you know, we need to push policy. 

Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of, so you've worked with the Zero Waste plan for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. So what's happening with that? Well, they have a net carbon or a net neutral plan. And so as part of that, they've committed to A zero waste plan because, and I'm gonna get the stats wrong, I should probably look it up, but you know, 30 to 40% of admissions are based on, is based on the production, extraction, transportation, packaging, and distribution of the goods and services that we have. So, zero waste is a good way to also be reducing our emissions. So today, we helped them develop a plan, super interesting project in terms of, we looked at the data that they currently had, who were their haulers, what information they had. We visited all of the sites. Port Authority has a pretty big footprint. They are marine terminals. They are bus. Trials or the path, the subways, the airports, all of that. The World Trade Center, the Oculus, the 9/11 Museum. So they have a pretty big footprint, and we got to go visit all of them and check every nook and cranny to see what kind of materials passed through that system, through their four walls, and how are they currently being disposed of. And what is a better way to dispose of them, or what is a better way to not dispose of them and reuse or rethink that purchasing of that item? You know, it's a government entity, it's public, so they have, they've now taken the work we did, and they're not gonna do their internal massaging and develop the report that they're comfortable with publishing online, which should come out. I think soon. But it's great to see big organizations like that looking at their waste. I mean, a really interesting tidbit, this is a good cocktail party tidbit for your listeners, is the FAA. Federal Aviation Authority requires that all garbage that comes off of international flights has to be incinerated. That immediately, you know, there's nothing you can do about that. So when you're on those really big flights and, you know, they just incinerate all of it. I think it's from a disease or something. I don't know. Maybe someone can Google it and, you know. Probably, uh, pest bugs and agriculture type of things, you know. Yeah, so that was like really interesting. I don't know if they can, they recycle the cans or not, but I think for mostly everything. So, you know, there are constraints even to what a big organization like that can do. 

Oh, I can imagine. And then so that's one type of project, and then you've also worked with a dude ranch in Colorado and a tribal nation in California. So those sound like they would be very different. So how are they different and same? Yes. Yeah, we do a wide variety of work. We also work with over 50 commercial buildings here in New York City, etc. But yes, this work, say, with the a dude ranch, so that's like a resort, and we've worked with several different types of resorts, even a global company that has resorts all over the world. But here's a dude ranch, is like figuring out their footprints. So again, it is about the first thing you have to do is collect data and understand. What are the materials that are coming into the space, and what are the materials going out, and how are they interacting with those materials while they're there? We do a waste audit, so we say, hey, what are you guys throwing away? Is there a better thing that you can do? Maybe you need to purchase less, you need to purchase differently. Maybe there's that training infrastructure, for example, they're a dude ranch, they have a lot of food waste. Can they connect with the compost program? In the area, so that they're diverting their food scraps. Food scraps in the US is about 30 to 35% of the municipal solid waste stream. So food is a really big stream, and we always say to organizations, solve for the food waste, and that'll really help you with your diversion rate. Yeah. And then, like, again, with the tribal nation, you know, they also have a pretty big site footprint, like a casinos and a reservation, etc. And we do. The same thing, which is, let's look at your footprint, your waste footprint. What are you throwing out? And what are all the materials you're purchasing and bringing into the site? And then creating an action plan for what do you reduce? We're really about reducing first before you're then trying to recycle compost and repair your way out of the problem. 

So, yeah. And then we also do like, we are a retainer business is a lot of commercial buildings here in New York City. So, you know, think about all the big buildings you're in, and lots of multiple tenants. And we work to make sure that they are in compliance with all the New York City regulations for commercial buildings and commercial organizations, training, compliance assessments. We do marketing and communications. We do a ton of waste audits, and then, you know, a lot of behavior change in the building to get folks to think differently about. The materials that they have in their hand that they're looking to toss. It's great. So what is your actual title? So if somebody is listening to this and says, I want to do that kind of sustainability work, what jobs are they looking for? Yeah, um, so I call myself a zero waste consultant or a low waste consultant. If folks are looking to get into this space, I would look for waste positions, right? There are sustain waste sustainability positions. I mean, you go on to LinkedIn and look, and a lot, a lot of the big companies have a waste position in some of their sustainability team, because like, all the big retail organizations, think about the Targets, the Walmarts, you know, IKEA. H&M, like fashion, they all are thinking about circularity, right? This idea of how do you keep materials in circulation, like continuously in a circle versus a linear fashion, which is extraction to landfill. So search for waste, sustainable waste, circular strategist, environmental sustainability. But you know, Now when you say sustainability, it could be energy, it could be water, it could be reporting, all of that jazz. So. Oh yes, sustainability is a very big word, as is environmental. It's a tricky, tricky areas to navigate when you're looking for a job. If you're interested in waste, you kind of want to either look at product companies who are making things and they're like trying to evaluate, am I making this material and packaging it in the most environmentally friendly way. And then another place where there's a lot of waste type of work is those in real estate and in the built environment. 

Because garbage is place-based, right? It's not, so it's really thinking through like you want to work with companies who own real estate or who own like Port Authority, they own all this real estate, so they're thinking about it, right? Um, all the big real estate owners, you talk about like the resorts, they all own a space, and they have to deal with their garbage. Even you could look at the waste management firms. They're national and locals, and they all have sustainability consultants related to waste. Because they all have to track the data, they have to talk to their clients about the MRRF operations. And MRF is a material recovery facility organization, which is where you go to separate all of the recycles. So I would look at those types of places. Yeah, that's great. Really great advice and garbage location based, I think that's a solid tip. That facilities, facilities management is a great place. Yeah, I imagine that every university, every, you said that opens up a whole. Clearfield of companies and businesses and organizations that would have ways to deal with. So I appreciate that. And then for those people who are starting at your company, you've been doing Jeopardy style sustainability trainings. Did you develop that? I did. Well, you know, we do a lot of training for our clients. So those that we work with on an ongoing basis, but a lot of organizations want to bring someone in for Earth Month or Plastic Free July or it was America. Recycle Day last week, or just for some type of employee engagement around this topic. And so we're always looking for fun things. We have a recycling game, we have a, you know, where we have bins and pictures and items, and people are running around trying to do stuff, making poster boards that depict recycling or composting. But a recent one that I've been doing and has received pretty good reviews is a Jeopardy game. I love Jeopardy growing up. I used to play with my brother, and we would be buzzing in. So I, I'm Alex Trebek. That's how old I am, I'm saying Alex. And we have a little game and we have buzzers. And I'm, I'm a stickler. So people say they'll say compost 101 for 500, and I'll read the question. They must answer in the form of a question. Or we don't accept it. And we do Double Jeopardy, and then we do that final Jeopardy where I make them bet an amount and come up with a game. Yeah. Yeah. So we try to make it fun, right? It's so boring otherwise, right? What is garbage's location based? Yes. Here's an aluminum can. I like. 

People get that. But explaining things, you know, making it memorable, throwing a few jokes in there, you know, helps. Yeah, of course, that sounds really cool. And then, so when working with all of these different types of companies and organizations, what point in circular economy in their business models do they struggle the most? And I would say in many points along the value chain. So one example is we are a sell sell sell economy, right? You're trying to sell your purse or your product or your and The focus is on selling and making it look beautiful, and, you know, packaging is part of that. Product designers or makers or sellers are not thinking about, well, what do you do with it at the end of its life. So that is one thing where companies are now trying to get their or not everyone, but there are product designers who are trying to think about. I have to design for end of life, along with designing for surprise and delight and functionality, right? And those two might be at odds with each other. So that's like one area I think where, cause it might be more expensive, right? For a different material to be used. So that's why I'll give you an example. I worked with a beauty company. As they were looking at manufacturing and formulation, they want to look at their product. And glass is recyclable in many parts of New York, uh, the US, but some places, not as much, right? There is glass recycling still needs some investment, so it's not. And people, when you have different colored glass, it makes it more difficult to recycle, cause you have to separate them all. But once you color glass, it's gonna stay on that green. But like for beauty products, they want to make small formulations, right? Small sizes. Those fall through the cracks if they're too small at a recycling facility. And you make them in these like special colors because you want to make sure that there's product integrity. If you only have one of this like tiny, tiny orange glass, it's like hard to recycle, right? So, but that's really good for your product integrity. 

And it's really good for like, branding, right? So those things are odd. Like that's like one example. Like, second one is, you know, branding and marketing, and they're really about selling. And I'm sure you've heard about this, but fashion companies are slashing and burning their products if they don't sell it because they don't want people to dumpster dive and grab it. And it's about maintaining the value of their brand. But I just want to let you know that many of those same companies on their websites talk about, we care about circularity. We care about like, buy our products forever. But on the, from an operational perspective or the brand perspective, another part of the brand team is like, when you dump those, you got to Cut up those purses because we don't want anyone to, to use them, right? So you have to really think about, are you infusing sustainability or the thinking around circularity in all parts of the business? Like, so when, when a branding professional or a marketing professional or an operations person. I thinking about their part of the business, are they also thinking about it from a circularity? That is not what they're necessarily goal on or measured on. So it's one of the smaller priority items in there. There's yeah. So, you know, there's all those areas where you're thinking of thinking about it. And then when we make it hard, and no one really cares, or you're asked about, did you ship out the product on time, on budget, then it's kind of hard to be like, OK, well, I wanted to use a different product, you know, a different set of materials. Or I need to make less of these items and we'll sell out and we'll lose out on revenue, but at least I'm not dumping extra material, right? So it's complicated. I think it just requires a lot of people to think differently about their job. When I work with companies, I always say for each of these different functions, we should come up with the questions that you would be asking yourself if you thought about your function from circularity and then see how much of your day job is at odds with some of that. And then have an open and honest conversation about it, right? 

Like, what, what are the tensions and the tradeoffs? Yeah, that makes total sense. In this consumerist society that we live in, it's, it is a real challenge. And I think that's why sustainability is still a growing field. I know there's lots of fears of jobs going away and the competition, I think is high and increasing as well, but at the same time, I think more and more companies are still doing this because they have to, like, what do you do with this? You can't keep just creating waste on top of waste, on top of waste. Yeah, that is true. I think people are starting to become aware, but there are multiple priorities that people have right now, right? And so I think. Convenience also very much trumps many things. I'm of Indian descent, right? So my family's from India. And I remember I was born and raised here, but I would spend a fair amount of time in India when I was growing up. We had a very low way society there, but you might, if you came from here and you were there, you might throw your head on the floor and just scream because You know, I got my milk from the milk guy and he came in the morning and I got my day and I had to, he poured it into a container for me and that was it, you know, not like I didn't have extra milk every day I got the milk I needed. Right. You know, and I would go if I went to The bijat or the market, I had to take a bag with me because they didn't have bags. They might wrap it in newspaper, but that's it. So then I have, you know, be holding all these packages if I didn't take my bag. And also, we just, like, if they sold out of things, they sold out of things, you know, like we didn't have as much takeout as we do. 

I mean, you just live. Differently when you don't have convenience, right? I love a good thumbs up, which is the Indian equivalent for a Coke. You know, I got it in a, those, those, uh, bottles. But guess what? If I was out and about and I drank from that bottle, I could not walk. I had to stand by the guy and drink that comes up. And returned the bottle before I went on my way. You know what I mean? I just slower. If I had a, a tea from a, a chai stand, I stood right there because 30 years ago, they were not giving me a disposable cup to go on my way. They do now. They do now. So there's way more garbage now in the, in India, because you're, we've created systems to enable people to live a more convenient lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah, I've often thought that even if just the the packaging said, and I think sometimes it does, like, please recycle me, please don't throw me on the ground, you know, that might help as well. It's continuing to remind people that, you know, hey, there's a trash probably 20 ft from you. I maybe look for it. Especially here in the city. I think most people are. I think a lot of the litter you see here is if they don't have, if there is no trash can. I always say to people, you can't get upset about litter if there's no trash can for 10 blocks. And some of it is from wind and stuff. I definitely see, you know, people throw it into the trash can, but it's open and then, you know. This is true. This is very true. But the Sanitation Foundation, which is the arm of the DSNY has launched. This very big PSA, maybe you've seen it. Don't dirty New York City. I haven't seen it yet. Where's this coming around? So you have to look for it online, but they're really focusing on this littering campaign. Oh, good. I love that. So dirty New York City. And then just speaking of before we move on to some more just personal fun stuff, where do you see the future of this type of work going? Well, I think there'll be much more investments in infrastructure to process materials, right? I think we need more compost facilities in the US. Maybe more waste to energy facilities in the US. Obviously more sophisticated MRFs, so that to be able to sort material quickly and find what is recyclable or what is sellable into the secondhand market. 

I think there's going to be more innovation on material. So I think people realize that plastic or polyester is not that great. I think There will always be plastic use, if you think about when you go to the hospital, right? Those big machines are made out of plastic or have a plastic cover, etc. I think those types of things are here to stay, but I think there will be a lot more investment to try to eliminate the single-use plastic with material that is more easily compostable or biodegrades or or something that has like a, a lower footprint. And then I just think there's slowly, as there's more awareness, maybe people will focus more on buying secondhand, repairing, reusing, kind of going back to what people used to do 100 years ago when they didn't have that much money and you couldn't get things delivered to your house in 3.2 sec, right? If you can't get something delivered next day, you're gonna try to figure out how to make it work or borrow from someone else. Yes, totally. Yeah. All right. Well, we are at the point in our show where we have a segment called Field Notes. This is a part of a show where we talk to our guests about memorable moments doing the work. So we ask that people send us their funny, scary, awkward field stories with us so that we can share them on future episodes. And so Ushma, you shared that you have a moment with your kids, and I can let you tell the rest of it. Sure. Um, well, I do take my kids trash walking through New York City. Um, Laura, I know you live in New York City, so I don't that sounds terrifying or not. Depends on what neighborhood you're in, I guess. Um, we do take gloves, Kevlar gloves. We do stick to the clear bags, right? So at least you're looking before you open. So the black bags will squeeze and I one of My first colleagues I think er was Anna Sachs. And if you follow her Instagram or TikTok, she's a trash walker. Um, but I'll look for that. You have to look her up. But anyway, so she takes us once or twice a year. So she has a big following because she Trash walks on the daily. Yeah, we, we go, I want them to understand how much stuff gets thrown away, and for them to feel like that's not right. And so that's what I do. I have taken them all over the city. I mean, I've taken them to public schools and we see all the supplies that are thrown away. 

In May, because teachers don't have enough time to clean out their classrooms and then donate or sort. They just have to get rid of everything. But I took, I've taken them to grocery stores. And, you know, we're just going and opening up and seeing what grocery stores are throwing away, that they should be donating, and they actually see families or, you know, definitely, you know, you'll see a mom and a daughter or a dad or someone. With backpacks also diving through like the Citarella. I've been through the Citarella, you know, and nice yogurts, fully packaged breads. I did bring home a lemon poppy, which everyone ate. Singly, but I made them eat it. You know, Brussels sprouts, like candy. I, I mean, I tend to just take the stuff that's packaged or, or from bags where I know that the whole thing was just like a, you know, swooped everything off the, the counter. And they get to see that there's also like a lot of food insecurity. And there are people opening bags and looking for food because they need the food. And that means like, that's wrong, that Organizations are throwing away perfectly edible food when they could donate it, and there is a good Samaritan law on the books that would mean that they're not held liable for anything. There are a ton of food rescue organizations here in New York City and across the country. That is another great place for your readers to look for jobs or where to volunteer in. In turn, but, you know, that is good work. And that is like very impactful work. So yeah, those are some of the things. What else have we done? Oh, we found a Jonathan Adler chandelier that was $150 out of a Columbia University at the year end, you know, all these students have 24 hours after their last exam to leave. So they're throwing crap out like, you will not believe. I did not get to make it up there this year, but I'm in the, a little group that were everyone is always like trying to dumpster dive at Columbia. And they pulled out a Mocla jacket. That was like $2500 like Timberland boots, soda streams, you know, refrigerators. You can do a lot. I'm really proud. My old alma mater, Georgetown University, they funded a reuse program. So now they do. Take things from students at year end, and then in September, people can come and grab things for their dorms or their apartments. So those are the makes so much sense. It is. It requires planning. You can't decide in May, oh, maybe we shouldn't let, you know, maybe, maybe think about, like, you have to think in September, Hey, what's your plan for year end, right? And then work internally, you can. Call thing 0, call someone else, maybe find the green team at your school, and they'll figure out a plan that like the Georgetown one was by Georgetown students. Yeah, that makes total sense. 

So any students in sustainability listening if your college does not have this already. There, there you go. There you go. Check out Georgetown for their program and see if you can borrow. And this, this is a perfect example why we keep doing field notes and keep talking about these stories, because we're all so similar, valued and so the same. You cannot say that you did this on some other podcast and have the audience go. That's awesome. Good, I want to give more ideas and you can take it. But Anna, who's a trash walker, she was pregnant and just had a kid. She had a buy nothing baby shower. So, you know what? Like, I gifted her items from my closet, and I gifted her something that I, that I got off of my buy nothing group on Facebook. If you're not on a buy nothing group, create one. If you don't want to be on Facebook, you could create a local one on your WhatsApp group, which is essentially a group where people can post things that they want to give away for free to the people in your neighborhood. I suggest you keep it local cause no one's gonna travel one hour to pick up some baby lotion. But you might walk down the street to get the baby lotion, you know? And I've now become friends with a whole bunch of my neighbors because of Buy Nothing. That, like, I bought maple syrup and my kids didn't like it. I posted it on Buy Nothing. Someone who knows me and knows my kids because we've done a lot of borrowing and sharing and our kids have met, was perfectly willing to take that maple syrup, you know, even though I'd opened it. Right. So, because there's a trust level there. Um. But yeah, so you can live it if you're giving a gift, go to the thrift store. Go shop your own closet, disclose it to your friends. Like, for example, my friends know I, I thrift. I'm not giving them something that doesn't work, but, you know, it's OK. My kids are done with those books. I can pass them on as a gift, and it's really the thought that counts, not how much money I've spent. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, we're getting very close to time here. So I want to ask you about this run you do a one week sleepaway camp for South Asian kids every summer. Oh yeah, well, that's not about garbage. No, absolutely not. We also want to talk about things we're not doing when we're trash talking, walking all day. I am, well, again, I'm South Asian, I'm Indian. And when I was young, my, my parents' generation who were all came from India, would run a camp. And it was a really formative experience for me. I hung out with all other Indians for one week, which was not the case. The other 51 weeks of the year.

I was fully integrated into my suburban life in New Jersey. And then a bunch of us who did that camp got together about 5 years ago, and now we run a similar camp up in Maine. We have almost, we started with like maybe 100 kids our first year. We're up to 400 kids. Wow. We're at capacity. We have a waitlist every year, but it's a fantastic. Plastic way for my kids to experience a little bit of that Indian culture. That's really amazing. Yeah. That sounds like a full-time endeavor in itself. It does take a fair amount of time, and I do want to let you know that there is a fair amount of tension with my zero waste lifestyle at this camp. Which they all know. We try to reuse as much as possible. I've, I have definitely made them spend a little bit more money than they want to. But I've also lost some battles. So, you know, you just have to. That is part of working and being in this field. You open your eyes to so much and then you still have to integrate with everyone who doesn't have as much knowledge or Any of the knowledge and not be hated by everyone that is true, right? But what I have learned through all this is no one likes to waste. Think about it. Like, think about each of us. Do you guys like to throw things away or to waste? No, but we don't necessarily have a system in place that makes it easy for us not to waste. And that's why I think a lot of policies and systems need to be put into place. All right, well, we are out of time. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about before we jump off? No, I, I really appreciate the opportunity. I think waste is a really interesting topic. I hope more people come into this space, and anyone can work on zero waste in your own community. There's lots of ways to do it. 

So, repair cafes, swaps. Education, training, putting into place a compost program, switching out reusables in your office. All of those are ways that you can make impact. Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today, or myself, Nic here in spirit, and where can people get in touch with you? Check out our website, thinkzeroLLC.com, and you can also email us or myself at info@thinkzero.com. And my name is Ushma, U S H M A. Thank you, Ushma. We'll talk to you later. Thank you. Have a great day. That's our show. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Bye. See you, everybody.