Resilient Leadership, Interconnected Stewardship, and Integrated Science Communication with Dr. Letise LaFeir

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Dr. Letise LaFeir, Chief of Conservation and Stewardship at the New England Aquarium about Resilient Leadership, Interconnected Stewardship, and Integrated Science Communication.  Read her full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
1:55 - Friends in adulthood
10:37 - Interview with Letise LaFeir starts
21:45 - LaFeir's Career Path 
34:50 - Policy Work 
41:09 - Field Notes with LaFeir

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Dr. Letise LaFeir https://www.linkedin.com/in/letise-houser-lafeir/

Guest Bio: 
Dr. Letise LaFeir serves as the Chief of Conservation and Stewardship at New England Aquarium, overseeing Animal Care, Anderson Cabot Center for Ocean Life, Conservation Learning, Conservation Policy, and Community Engagement. LaFeir most recently served as a day-one Biden-Harris Administration appointee in the role of Senior Advisor to the Under Secretary of Commerce for Oceans and Atmosphere and the Administrator of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Before holding that position, LaFeir was a Program Officer and later Director of Federal Policy at Resources Legacy Fund; California Ocean Policy Manager at Monterey Bay Aquarium; Policy Analyst and later National Outreach Coordinator for NOAA’s Office of National Marine Sanctuaries; and Director of Government Relations and Education Program Coordinator at the National Marine Sanctuary Foundation. She also spent one year as a Sea Grant Knauss Marine Policy Fellow for now-retired Congressman Sam Farr of California. In 2014, LaFeir founded and still co-owns Upwelling Consulting, LLC. During her career, she has been honored with several awards, has had countless public speaking engagements, and has served on several professional advisory boards. In addition to authoring or co-authoring several scientific publications and a book of poetry, she is a certified scuba diver (Advanced and Nitrox) and has traveled to all seven continents and the seafloor. LaFeir holds a B.S. in Aquatic Biology and a B.A. in English (with Honors in Creative Writing) from Brown University, and a Ph.D. in Marine Biology from the University of Delaware-College of Marine Studies.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello. Welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Nic and I talk about making friends. We interviewed Dr. Letise LaFeir about resilient leadership, interconnected stewardship, and integrated science communication. And finally, octopus are having a glow up these days, and we are all buying in.

We all know that they have 3 hearts, blue blood and hyper strong beak. If you didn't, now you know. But they can also detach an arm to escape a predator. You may have known that. They are all venomous. Did not know that. And I'm not done yet cause I'm not done yet. I'm finished writing the rest of it. You started before. I've done. They can re all the arms they lose. I mean they've got ink clouds, they're super, super smart, they're like the smartest invertebrates there are. That's the end. I just wasn't done yet. kept going and I was like, oh, I'm not done. So did you know all those things, Laura, did you know? Oh my gosh. Uh chuck that into the intro fails. Oh, that's amazing. We've gotta keep it exactly as it is. 

Hit that music. 

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Let's get to our segment. 

I feel like a weirdo that like other people are like, you have lots of best friends that can't be true. Or other people are like, that's so hard to make friends. I'm like, I can't stop making friends. I don't have this problem. It does depend on what you're doing and how you do it, right? I mean, some of it's just like connecting with people. And sometimes like you make friends in strange ways, sometimes it's through stuff like this, you know, and sometimes it's not. So I don't know, it all kind of, I think maybe a different way to say it for me is like, I think a lot of people are searching for community, right? And it's a very hard thing to find, and the older you get, the harder it seems to be because you're limited to Where you are and who's around you. And if you're in a place that is very big and has lots of culture and lots of things that are going on, it's much easier to go like, hey, these are the things I like to do. I'm gonna go do them. If you're further away from that, and you're like, well, it's a lot more purposeful. I got to really go into the city or to somewhere else where those things are, and that makes it much more difficult. And so it's almost like you have to like try your best to get to those places, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna go work from the office today. So that I am forced to be in the city. And I can go get lunch, or I can go to a show after, or if I'm gonna go to a show, maybe I get a hotel near there and I'd stay in the area, spend it, make a day of it, you know, that kind of thing. Maybe I did those two exact things recently, and that's why they're at the top of my head. Um, but you know what I mean? I think that's where some people would struggle is getting to the community. Absolutely, I mean, you don't make friends by not leaving your house. 

Unless you're playing video games, you can. I mean, we have someone on the team who made more than a friend from playing video games like, but it's still that was finding community. Yeah, and if your community is online, that's a perfectly valid place to find friends. That's true, and it's honestly much easier than it was when You and I were kids. Yeah, you couldn't really play group duck hunt or anything. No, exactly. You gotta go to someone's house. You gotta get someone. You gotta convince someone to drive you to someone else's house. That's what has to happen as a kid when we were kids, you know, it's like, oh, I don't want to take you to Michael's house. Oh, come on, Bo, I just wanna play that. Ride your bike. I don't have one, you know. One of my best friends and I used to watch shows on the phone together, so the 30 ft of phone cable is going through the kitchen, through the bar window, and then down to the couch in the back room where I'm watching Twin Peaks and she's also watching Twin Peaks and we're watching at the same time. That is the most normal thing I've heard. That's great. It's, it's so 80s. That is so funny. Yeah, it very much is. And I just, I remember like. It's such a funny thing to think about, like, you gotta call whoever you're interested in, right, when you're in high school, you got to call their parents' house and be like, are they home? 

And I remember the very first time I did, it took me like an hour just to work up the courage to call and hope that this person picked up on a course it was her mom, her mom, right, of course. And I'm like, uh, so and so there, and she's like, who are you? I'm like, um. I, you know, and just like sweating. I remember sweat. I'm like, oh yeah, it's just things kids will never know today. Yeah, yeah, I know, which is so funny. Look at us like we're doing a little back in my day we had to call people. Yeah, to talk to parents. But no, it is funny how that kind of, I don't know, maybe that makes it seem like it's, it's harder for people our age to connect because we're not really used to online communities, and I think sometimes that can be true too. I remember when online gaming became a thing, like I remember when it didn't exist and it did exist, and it was a Hellscape for a very long time because it was just anyone and everyone can say anything and everything. There was no way for you to mute that person. There was no way for you to like ban them. It was just you had to take on the chin whatever they said. And it was really unpleasant. And I mean it took me like a decade to get over that. Oh, that's interesting. That's not, I don't, I didn't ever do that, so I don't know like what that. Yeah, and it's like, you know, this is like, you know, when the internet is like birthing itself, it's like, uh, look at this wonderful thing with no problems and someone's like, you know. A you nerd and you're like, wait, what? I don't understand what that was for. And then it's like, oh, that's all it is. OK, great. Yeah, maybe we should, you know, block some of this. Like, but yeah, I don't know. I always thought that was kind of funny. And then slowly, that's changed quite a bit and it's pretty common now for finding community that way, or more common, I would say. Yeah, I don't know. I never ever consider myself like an outgoing or extrovert type of person. But when I think about, you know, I still have my friends, like I said, I said before, I think to this group of students last week that I'm a people collector, not in the kidnapping type of way, but just like, if I think you're cool and you values align with mine, like, you're probably going to hear from me again. And so I have, you know, a collection of Besties from middle school, high school, and then I've got people I work with, and then just people I've met in different groups and spaces, but then when I think about it, I'm like, I'm in so many groups and spaces doing stuff, so maybe I am more outgoing than I actually consider myself to be. I know, I actually had that same thought the other day, where I was like, maybe I'm not an introvert, as much of an introvert as I thought I was, but, you know, I still have to recharge at the end of the night on my own.

I still like doing that. But it is funny how you just kind of get grow into who you are as a person and you're just like, you know what, I actually enjoy. Like going around to different groups of people and checking in with them, making sure everyone's good, like that makes me happy. It's kind of funny, especially like at a conference, man, I was, I was like wheeling and dealing at NAP's last conference. I went to like 7 different groups, uh, you know, different dinners and happy hours or whatever the heck they were doing. I was involved. I was involved. I was rolling around and then like the next week I didn't do a thing because I was so worn out, but you know, in that moment it was quite fun. Yeah, I think the other part of that too, I think you touched on, I will reach out. I'm not the person who says, oh, you haven't called me for 2 months, so I'm not calling you either. If I generally liked you and I'm interested to know what you're doing, I'm still going to follow up. Right, which is it's a great skill, truthfully, like I'm much worse at that than I would like to admit. And it's like uh I don't want to say I have, they have object permanence, and I have like people permanence, you know. Where it's like if I'm not seeing you every day, it's like, oh, I gotta, I gotta go call. Yeah, and that's, that's the part I don't take personally. I don't think that everyone thinks that way and it, it's not, it's just natural. 

It's not, you know, you're working on your day-to-day stuff and you have work to do and things to do in your immediate family and your closer friends. It doesn't mean that you don't care. You're not interested, just, you just, life goes by so fast. And so, but if I'm like, hey, I haven't heard like Kira, I'm like, what is Kara doing? So I'm going to follow up with Kira because I'm like, what? She just popped in my brain. Where's Kara? And I'm not mad. She has not reached out like. You know, she's got her own life going on, but I'm like, what? I want to know what she's doing. So I think there are maybe less of those types of people out there. So my advice to anyone who is trying to make adult friendships, like that's maybe one of the number one thing is you have to kind of take some initiative, I think. Mhm. And I, I would say even from someone like, like my way of getting around that, right? Cause I am not the greatest at following up, and the best way around it is when I think of that person immediately. I'm like, hey, how are you doing? Let's catch up. I just text and I'm like, hey, we should catch up soon. And, you know, if the other person doesn't say anything back, no big deal, you just move on. But like, that's my way of working through it, because I know that they may pop out of my head for another couple of weeks if I don't say something right there. And it's just something I learned about my personality and how I work and what works best for me. Yeah, absolutely. So I think homework for anyone listening, whoever pops in your brain, send a message right now. I know, right? And maybe it's one of us, who knows? No. Can't wait to reconnect with you guys, so. That would be amazing. Yeah, that's a good, huh, yeah, uh. Everyone call us, um. That's you. 

Welcome back to DPR. Today we have Doctor Letise LaFeir. Letise is the Chief of Conservation and stewardship at the New England Aquarium in Boston, which is awesome. It's been a while since I've been there, but it's a fave. So you have held a lot of really cool roles from NOAA to Monterey Bay Aquarium, and now you are leading the efforts at the New England Aquarium. So tell us a little bit about your career path and how you ended up there. Well, hi, Laura, thanks for having me. Nice to talk to you today on this Halloween, one of my favorite holidays because I love horror movies. Um. I get it from my mother. She loves it too. So, my background, speaking of my mother, my background is I grew up in Chicago, so it's not a typical path for marine biologists, but I give a lot of credit to the shed aquarium. So I grew up not far from the shed aquarium, and my mother was an educator, so she had me watch lots of Discovery Channel, PBE. Yes, and lots of times at zoos, aquariums, museums, etc. But I always begged her to go back and forth to the shed aquarium. So it was there. I got my early start of just loving and watching those shows, like loving the ocean and trying to figure out what can I do with this. And my mother sent me to the Harold Washington Library in Chicago to say, I don't know, what can you do with this? And this love that you have. And I realized it was marine biology, not oceanography. Um, that I was really enthralled by what's in the ocean, what's under the ocean, what happens beneath the surface. And as a kid, the Great Lake, Lake Michigan was huge, you know, so I had no idea at 4 years old, 6 years old, the difference. And so that's, that was my early start in Chicago, just realizing what I wanted to do. And then I did teen programs at the shed. So by the time I applied to college, I knew for sure, like I want to. 

Look for a school where I can study marine biology and that's where it started. Yeah, that's awesome. So then, as you were going through your, your early career, what sort of challenges did you face or did you, did you meet some people who kind of helped push you in different directions? Well, early on, so I, I went to Brown University in Rhode Island and actually I had lots of support from mentors there. So there was an aquatic biology program at Brown, and we were part of the Was Consortium. But as you can imagine, two things, places like Brown have mostly med students, lots of biology classes, chemistry, organic chemistry, etc. So it was a small marine biology program. And the other is I often was the only brown face in every room. So as a, as a woman, as a woman of color, and then wanting to do something crazy like marine biology, especially from a city. I was outnumbered. So there were those challenges of just, are you sure this is what you want to do? Are you sure this is what you want to do? But again, fortunately, I had my mother supporting me and then the mentors at Brown were really supportive. Like, if this is what you want to do, we're going to make sure you get what you need. So I was able to do a study away at, uh, Western Washington University on the West Coast just to sort of solidify that marine science passion. They sent me off on cruises and other things. It just a hands-on experience around, but that was a challenge just being the. Sort of weird marine biologists. And then, yeah, so, and I'll just say also, as I went to grad school at University of Delaware, the main challenge was I started to ask questions about policy. It's like, OK, I'm at the science lab in Lewis, Delaware. What do I do with this research? I can do it over and over. I can get a postdoc. I can do all those traditional things, but who do I tell about what I know with my science? And that became a challenge because at that time, at least the integration, sort of the intersection of science and policy that we see more widely now didn't exist. So I was this oddball, you know, I was just asking these policy questions, and I started to take policy courses at the main campus. Then I became the scientist in the policy course. 

Because again, the integration, and that was just a challenge, just try to explain why I wanted to use science to engage in policy. So those were some early, early days. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, it sounds like your kind of blazing your own trail the whole time and you've ended up as the first chief of conservation and stewardship for 2 years. So how did that come to be? It's a new role, so my path, just, I stayed in that science policy nexus. So I went to Capitol Hill. I worked for the federal government, both on the legislative side and the executive side. I've worked for nonprofits. So it became this mix of different kinds of experiences. And so when Vicky Sproll our our CEO at the New England Aquarium, created this role, she was thinking about just the need for her to have a C-suite because there were so many staff that were reporting up to her as the CEO. And she decided to create this role because her background is very much a conservation, ocean conservation background as well. She wanted someone who could come in and integrate our work. So we have a science arm of researchers, we have our animal care team, of course, all the animals in our building, but we also do policy and community engagement and education, of course, sustainability, all these programmatic pieces. All this conservation work, and she didn't have anyone on staff who could wear all those hats. I'm a scientist, I'm a policy professional. I've done education outreach most of my career, and I come from aquariums, between Shedd Aquarium and the Monterey Bay Aquarium, and plus my time at NOAA. So it was just, I wore those hats. And when she tapped me to say, would you be interested in this role? I need a I need a unicorn. Are you a? How about you? So that's how I landed at. This might be a little bit like naming your favorite child, but do you have a favorite aquarium? That is very difficult. Don't put me on the spot like that. Not fair, not fair, not fair. They all have a very special place in my heart, right? But obviously shed gave me my start. Monterey is capital TB Aquarium, and New England has such a unique mix of expertise that I haven't experienced other places. So, OK, yeah, so are we going to ask you what your favorite fish is and like you know what I mean like you, that's fair. Fish are they can't hear you. I know. 

So I oversee the entire animal care team. They might not want to know my bias, but, um, the octopus is my favorite animal. I have a tattoo. I have octopus pillows. I have, you know, so it's, it's, it's pretty well known that it's the octopus, though. I think it's just because they are so smart and self-sacrificing. So they are multitaskers. Literally every each arm can do something different at the same time. Yeah, which is incredible, which is really incredible. They can solve just about any puzzle you put in front of them. They can escape and they can have fun, and they can do all these things. And then the mothers, you know, now that I have two teenagers, literally sacrifice themselves for their young. So it's just something really. Incredible about how they change color and shape and all those things. Is that like something you would say to your teenagers when they are not treating you or when they treating you like teenagers? An octopus mother would die for this. You're giving me grief. You're giving me grief. Look at all the things I sacrifice for you. You. That's awesome. So you said you're over, you oversee the entire animal team. So what else, what's your day like? Every day is different because I oversee all those programs I described, all those departments I described, each day really varies. Now, in some cases, I might be learning about a new animal and exhibit or in our quarantine or maybe an animal we've lost for one reason or another, or research that we're doing. Both in the building and outside of the building, they have the field research team, and the animal care team does research as well. So each day I might be engaging with staff on something along those lines. Obviously, policy is really active right now, um, and so since I oversee the, no, no, you don't think so, making the face making a joking face. 

I'm like, What? What? No way. Yeah, I know. I was being. I was also being a cynic. Um, so, you know, some days it's thinking about how do we ensure that we're moving the ball, right? Making sure we're achieving our outcomes. Especially in a non-federal offense offensive way, right? We have close ties with the city of Boston, with the state of Massachusetts, with others in the region. So every day I might be engaged in a meeting with policymakers or with donors, right, talking about our work. So, it really varies from internal and external. I have very much an internal and external role where I'm engaging. I sit on boards in the Boston area, so I do go back and forth quite a bit and It's just, just a mix. Sometimes I'm in the exhibit. I also get to say to my team, hey, I want to go to the exhibit next week. How's that? And, and we figure out a way for me to get in with the penguins, right? Yeah, yeah. Oh man, that's so a kiss get a kiss from the. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. That's very cool. Well, I mean, like, it's funny, we, we've interviewed people that do a lot of different things, and you also seem to be doing not just a lot of different things at your job, but outside of that too. So you founded Upwelling Consulting. Um, so what was your intention and goal when you started that business? The reason I started that business was because my husband used to work for a state department and we moved every 2 years. When my when my kids were young. And so we were overseas in Greece for 2 years. And when I got back to DC and again, we just kept moving. When I got back just the way the policy world is, it's hard to just jump back in. Even though the people were the same, the players were the same. Nothing had changed. It was still a lot harder to get a job. And so in the interim. I started the consulting business because I wanted to keep, you know, just keep working. I'd done some consulting overseas just to keep working. So when I got back to DC and it was hard to land something, I just started consulting and then I landed jobs as a consultant instead of as a professional. And then I just kept it going. Sometimes it's harder to take on contracts because I'm Busy, really busy now, especially now. I recused myself when I was in the Biden Harris administration from consulting because I was being lobbied all the time. So I had to take on roles. Right. So, I've kept it going this for all this time. Yeah, no, that's, that's great. 

And it's like I say, it's solving a problem. You know, you're like, I have got a problem, I'm going to solve it. I've, I'm going to solve it. And I refuse to give up my career. I mean, I'm better for it now. My husband and I, I thank him actually now that I am the unicorn that I am because we moved so much and I just refused to give up my career. So I just kept getting new positions and trying new things. And it helped when I put the consulting firm together, people knew me and my background. And now I'm able to land something like Chief of Conservation of stewardship, so. Right. And then, you know, it is a showcase of your talent in a different way, right? Like, OK, I am not willing to just say, oh, I'm, I'm out, you know, you want to find a way to do it and you did it. I think it's like you say, you have a really interesting career, you have a really fascinating career. I am like super biased towards like aquariums, animals, all this. I am that the same kid, you know, going like, I want to look at cheetahs, you know, whatever it is, like I just, I'd love the idea of being like they're over there. Um, yeah, no, they're right there. I can just, yeah. You know, and but you got to like represent the aquarium at the IUCN World Conservation Congress in Abu Dhabi, which is a monstrous stage and like even like as a kid, like the idea of that, it's I'm not saying it's like going, you know, being in the World Series or whatever else, but it's kind of like a really huge deal. So yeah, that's a huge deal. I knew. What the Ian was when I was like 5 because I'm a, you know, that's the kind of kid I was. You're also a weirdo. Yeah, that's so weirdo Laura, we're passionate, we're passionate. That's true, very passionate, books, you know, very much into that. I had like wildlife facts. I was in it. But like I love experience like being at the IUC and that's, that's wild. It was wild, overwhelming, fulfilling all the ways, but I mean, we're talking 9000, 10,000 attendees. Just for the broader for over 4 or 5 days. And then the members assembly was, you know, 12 hour days, basically 8:30 a.m. to 9:30. And those are just the voting members. 

So I was the head of delegation, the authorized vote holder. And so I sat in these rooms with the headphones translated 4 different languages, which was wild for me, like to to have to sit there and you see it on TV, right? But this is my first time I've done international work, but my first time being a delegate and having the day as the president up there and talking about specific issues in real time. Now you have 3 minutes to go vote on that amendment on this conservation issue, like 3 minutes. What? Wait, translate, translate, friend. I can't hear you Marley French too, whatever. So French, Spanish, and English are the three official languages of IUCN, but because we were in Abu Dhabi, sometimes there was Arabic, right? uh. But it was wild and it was great to see how you have these different perspectives from I mean 100, more than 150 countries, I think they said were represented in that room on those days, voting on common issues. We have different ways to advance conservation. From our various perspectives, so there were governments were equals with NGOs were equals with the scientists in the room, right? And so we're, it was wild. So you started there with wild and exhausting. You slept for like a day my brain active for that many hours back-to-back to back to make real decisions. So now that we've, we've been members since May, this was our first congress. Now we really need to figure out how to leverage IUCN for the conservation goals we have as well. So we'll become more engaged in the US National Committee of IUCN. We'll join more commissions. We already have some engagement and some of the species conservation Species survival commission. Those kinds of things. So we'll just, we'll put into it what we want to get out of it, right? So we'll just get more engaged from here. Yeah, which is really cool and I'm going to get real weird. That's the word that Laura used, but so passionate, passionate, passion, yeah, you're in safe company on this podcast, everyone listening was weird for some reason or other. But, but, like, uh, so I know like zoos, for example, like they have species survival plans for species they're trying to conserve, and so there's like a state, I guess a countrywide program for that that's actually, there's an international program. 

So like, I don't know if maybe people don't even know what IUCN does and what its role is. So how does, maybe you can give us like a brief primer on what that is and how zoos and aquariums work with IUCN. Like what's the end goal for those things you're talking about? You have policy shifts and changes, but what does that look like? Maybe there's an example of the International Union for Conservation of Nature. So I guess I should say the full name because we've been saying IUCN. It is the largest network of volunteer conservation. Players, right, because you show up to make a difference. They have a staff that gets paid, they have members of their council that have full-time jobs, and they come to IUCN and then all their members are still volunteers in our own right to come make this body move forward on these agenda items, but as this large body, that means they have a presence at every end. Just about every international engagement, right? They're going to be at the COPS, so the conference of parties for climate, the conference of Party for biodiversity, they're going to be at the conferences, they're going to host the conferences on marine protected areas, international marine protected areas. So they're a huge player and they work with their members in advance of those meetings to come up with these positions. Right, so they'll take into account what we voted on and then go as a unit on behalf of us to say we want to see this kind of action codified at these international bodies. And so that's one way. 

The aquariums are underrepresented in IUCN actually, so there are plenty of zoos, there are botanical gardens, there's some museums. My understanding is that the New England Aquarium was the first aquarium, standalone aquarium to join IUCN. Um, there is the World Conservation Society, WCS that operates New York Aquarium where you are, Laura, but WCS is the member also the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. Yeah, AA, AA is they're a member, so of course, we're all members then of AZA, those that are accredited. So, we can engage in that way. And now Seattle Aquarium has joined, and I hear others in the US are joining, but around the world, there actually aren't many aquariums that have been standalone aquariums that are members of the IACN and we're trying to bring that new that other perspective, like ocean animals. We evolved from them, and we evolved from them, and the ocean is our lifeline and so to make sure that we're having those conversations from our perspectives as well. And like zoos, Nic, aquariums also have species survival plans we have for our animals. So for example, our African penguins at the New England Aquarium are part of a species survival plan. We engage in sharks and rays’ survival plans, those, so those kinds of activities so. Yeah, which is, oh man, it's such a joy to talk about because it's very cool to think about. It's like, oh, like, um, you know, why wouldn't you talk to other aquariums and other zoos that have similar animals I'm sure you're. Working on conserving the species. It's really cool. And there was one exciting announcement. So you mentioned the species list. So IUCM on the red list. There's lots of bad news all the time, right, about how, how our habitats are doing, how our species are doing. But while in Abu Dhabi, IUCN announced that the green sea turtle has been upgraded, so to speak, from endangered to least concern, which is. Good news. That means that around the world, institutions like ours are helping to rebuild that population. The New England Aquarium has a sea turtle hospital, and we rescue and we have 400 to 500 turtles every year, every single year. Um, most of those are camps for at least, and they are still endangered. They're critically endangered actually. 

Green sea turtles are another. Sometimes we get loggerheads too. So that was exciting for us to know in some way, we had a hand in that. Obviously, it's Many institutions around the world, right? So even things like that, to be on the ground when that happens, to be able to celebrate together is great. Yeah. It's, it's extremely cool. I love that you brought up turtles because now I get to ask a turtle. Uh, but it's so funny you say that. Like, I think a lot of times people have an idea. Of like what conservation means. And my favorite thing about science is you, you can adapt and change as, as you get new information. And sea turtles are a great example of that because if you remember like the first conservations were like, OK, gotta save all the eggs, we gotta save all the eggs, we gotta, you know, we'll hatch the eggs and then put them in the ocean, and someone was like, is that the best way to conserve the species? And they just did an analysis like, what's the mortality rate? Is it better to save them or save adults? And they were like, it's not even close. If you save an adult turtle. It's way more beneficial for the species because they keep laying eggs. The eggs are supposed to not make it a lot of times, and so it's a really neat thing how that changed and you start seeing those rehab centers and so I don't know, it's like a, I don't know if there's new stuff coming, but I love the idea of like That's how conservation works, you know, it doesn't, it's not static, it keeps adjusting and moving, so. Well, I was going to say it also allows you to connect the dots. So yes, we know the big old females are really important to protect, but now it gives us a chance to think about nesting areas. It's really important to then give them a safe place to go, lay their eggs. So it's the combination, the dots that you start to connect based on what you learned. And that's the great part of conservation too. It takes a lot of different pieces working in a concert. Yeah, it really does. And it's so cool. I'm gushing here, you can hear in my voice, but anyway, um, so one of the other things I want to talk to you about, you were a senior adviser in the Biden Harris administration, and you mentioned that. Um, so like in that role, what is that role like and what did you take away from that? Yeah. So it's really hard to see what's happening at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. But in that role, I'd have to say, so forgive me, Vicky, that was my most impactful job, right? That role as a Biden Harris appointee, and that I was a day, so first I was a day one appointee, which means that literally an hour after the president was sworn in, I was one of the people sworn in. That's amazing. And instead, get to work and I log into my inbox, and I was already behind. Yeah. That was amazing. I have; I've missed deadlines already. That's insane. So the chief of staff and I were the first two people at NOAA ready to go. 

We're close friends now. We were already needed to work on that next budget and all these different things. And so for a while, I was the only senior adviser. That means I had the entire portfolio, all the things, fisheries, satellites, all the things. Even before no administrator arrived, he arrived 5 or 6 months later, because he had to go through the full Senate process, etc. But in that role, what I found was, I was able to use my expertise. To make decisions. I also, of course, advised everyone, you know, folks above me, because it's in my title. But there were some things that just fell to me to decide. You just decide, go forth and decide. And to be that close to decision making and to know that. Improving this body of work or proving this pot of funding will go directly to a community that then I get to go meet them and see how they're using it was really impactful for me. I jokingly say, because this is a PG. It's all, it's all the F's though. It was full time, like we were on call 24/7. It did not matter. I had two cell phones, too. I was on call all the time. The White House could call me any time, or one, and then or Secretary of Commerce or no administrator. Anyone could call me at any time. So that was truly full time. You talk about full time, full time. It was fun. It was fulfilling and sometimes it was just messed up with I'll use an M. Um, politics is real. So I, I love policy, and I get a thrill out of politics, but it's hard, hard, even if you're in a position of decision making and power, it's really hard. So is all the things every day, but I loved it so much. But I'm so exhausted just thinking about it that I don't know if I would ever go back, but I, I loved it so much. And I believed in the NOAA mission so much because I did the NOAA Sea Grant Fellowship. So I said, I started my career. I asked all those questions in grad school. Well, I did a fellowship. I did the NOAA Sea Grant Marine Policy, the canals fellowship. I don't know if you all are familiar. 

So I spent a year on Capitol Hill because of NOAA. And I worked at the Office of NOAA National Marine Sanctuaries as career staff. So I've been engaged in NOAA through. I worked for a member of Congress who was an ocean champion, chair of House Ocean Committee caucus, and appropriator. Noah was in my portfolio. And then I became an appointee, so it felt like Noah was in my blood. I just really believed in the mission, really believed in I still do. And so it's really painful to watch now. Um, but it was a great, it was just such a fulfilling role. I can, yeah, I mean, I can, I can, uh, it's a big deal and you talk about being so close to policy like you're enacting it, you know. And that's the thing with policy, right? Usually, it's a really long timeline. You're working on something just to get one word in a bill. That's success or strike a word from a bill. That's success that changes everything. But to be that close that I can make a decision and then see it on the news. Yeah. Short line between a decision I made to it just happened. Great. Yeah, so. Yeah, it's really, really cool stuff. So is there a particular one that you're proud of? Or is it memorable? Yeah, we're putting you on the spot all over the place. I keep saying, Yeah, yeah. What's your favorite? What's your favorite? Two things. There are two things that I will say, Oh man, this is hard. The two that come readily to mind, one, probably never made headlines, where we created this community fund. We worked very closely with the administrator to come up with a way for us to, with our discretion, legally support local communities or really decide. 

So we had round tables with these local communities all over the country. We are a, a climate agency. We know natural disasters are happening. We want to make sure you're resilient, and each community have very different things. They wanted it from NOAA, you know. And so we were able to come up with plans with them and then have them partner not with headquarters at NOAA, but the NOAA representatives in their communities, and then funded the work. That was our commitment going in. We'll start these roundtables, and we commit funding up front, right? And then we distributed that funding and they were, you know, a year later saying, this is how it's been impacting our community. This is what we're teaching community members to do to keep Agri farms going because of the resilience work that you've helped us do. And I don't know if it ever made headlines. I mean, we put it out on Noah's website, look what we've done all around the country, but it meant so much because I heard that directly from those community members, like, come see. Like, we really thank you. Yes, which is what every environmental professional wants. They want to see and feel and hear the impact. It is so great. I'd say the second thing is the designation of the Shemash National Marine Sanctuary in California. Yeah, sounds awesome. Yeah, that community, because I worked for a member of Congress from California, and because I'd worked many years in California, even after I left him. I knew the those communities that have been putting forward that proposal. It took more than 10 years to get that proposal finally designated, and so I saw it from early days all the way through to when I was at NOAA to be able to approve it. 

Before I left, it was the last meeting on the last day of the last hour I had was to make sure that package was ready. It still took another couple months after that, but the package, I said, this is ready, just, it's ready to go. And when it was formally designated tears, like. Yeah. Like, I'm getting emotional just can imagine how you're feeling. That's so many players, so many players, but to be able to, you know, put my finger on it, like this has to happen. This is the one thing. That has to happen. It sounds like that work from the moment you started to the moment you left was just every word. That's a really good word for it, very full. So, OK, so we've talked about a lot of different experience you've had in your career and your life path and all of that shaping you to who you are and where you are. So what's the, I mean, you know, we keep narrowing it down to one thing. I don't know why we're doing it today, but What's the biggest lesson, the biggest advice you'd have for people, you know, like, uh, things that you've learned along the way. What's that big takeaway? We're all connected. And we're all connected to the ocean. The ocean's connected to us. We're all connected. So it doesn't matter if you grew up in Chicago like me, it doesn't matter if you're in France. It doesn't matter if you, you know, wherever you are, we are actually connected to each other. Every decision we make creates a ripple. Every decision we don't make, you know, creates a ripple. And for someone who's, I mean, I've been to Antarctica, I've been to the deep sea, I've been to the halls of Congress, I've been in the White House. I've been in multiple aquariums, and the lesson is, we're all connected. So we can act together, we can act individually, but all those pieces come together in some way. And so that's what I tell people. It doesn't matter what you care about. Are you an artist? Guess what? You can also advocate for it. You can be an ocean champion. I tell people all the time, everyone. Can be an ocean champion. It doesn't matter what you're passionate about, turtles or otherwise. Right? You can make a movie about it. You can write a book about it. You can dance about it. You can teach middle schoolers about it. You can be an engineer. Everyone can be an ocean champion, because we are all connected. Yeah, that's fantastic. OK.  And it's like you have life experience, you know, like I remember seeing the first time I saw a green sea turtle was actually humongous. I had no idea they could get bigger than me, and that was something, but that's, you don't need that to understand that. That's right. It's important. Like you said, the water going down your drain right now connects you to the ocean. The every breath, literally, every other breath you take. Just connected you to the ocean. You wouldn't have that oxygen if it weren't for it. Your piece of trash, and decision. Yeah, unfortunately, yes. And fortunately, but that's the positive part. And fortunately, right? We can do better and it will make a difference. It make me think about the ocean waves. I listen to you to fall asleep. Like, no wonder it's so soothing. What about, we're also 70% water. I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. They've had studies that if you look at a blank canvas or a canvas of a forest, or say a canvas of an ocean, just looking at still picture, you're calm, more, it can be observed, your calming rate much faster looking at a picture of the ocean. No sounds, no movement. So imagine sitting at the edge of the ocean. That does for you. Yeah, that's great. All right, well, let's keep our time moving forward. 

We have a segment we call Field Notes. This is a part of a show where we talk to our guests about memorable moments doing work in the field, and we like people to send us your funny, scary, or awkward. It doesn't have to be all of those things at the same time, field stories with us so we can read them on future episodes. You can send them to info@environmentalprofessionalsradio.com. And Letise, you've done so many things and you've been in so many aquariums. You must have, and you just mentioned Antarctica, so you must have stories. My favorite moments, yes, in the field. So since I mentioned Antarctica in the deep sea, one of the things in Antarctica that was amazing to me is you could see the days get, I guess, longer. I'm trying to think about, because I went in January, February, and there were moments where the sun. We just kiss the horizon and come right back up because we're so just come right back up. That was crazy. It was just dusk and sunrise again. And I was out there about 4 to 5 weeks, and then over time, you could then see how that changed. But usually where you are, it just changes. No one actually, you don't visually see it. But also being out there, penguins just came up to us, whales came right up to the boat. We were out on zodiacs. They just come right up. So to be immersed in that way was. Interesting, to say the least. So being out in the field like that, and then in the deep sea, first of all, I was in Alvin. I was in the Alvin, the Waho. Yeah, I was in Alvin. Maybe like best friends, like it just what Alvin, yes. So it's only 3 people fit the pilot and the 2 scientists. Yeah. And I was there actually as the science communicator. I was there to translate the science because I just been at the intersection enough that I was the person tapped to do that. So I made sure not to eat and drink all day because you're in Alvin for 12 hours. And usually, they're men. I mean, usually men. So you can, you go under a blanket, you get a bottle. Not so easy for women. So I didn't eat or sleep all day. 

You go in and how quickly you lose light. So it's amazing. You're in this bubble where legs crossed in this bubble. You're going down light, you lose light pretty quickly. It took us about, I think, 2 or 4 hours to get down, then we're down on the sea floor for another 4 hours or so and then it takes you hours to get back because you have to. Just repressurize and then there's condensation, it starts getting so cold, so cold, and the, you know, alpha just starts to sweat. There's condensation and it's pitch black. Total darkness until the pilot turns on the light. First it's like you're on the moon, and suddenly you see all this life. Wow. That blew my mind. I felt like I was in outer space, but better, you're a water or not. I did not know you were a water or not. That's so cool. Yeah. A lot of time on vessels, but this is my first time deep sea. By the way, I would just say a pet peeve is when people say it's not astrophysics or it's not rocket science. Actually, oceanography, marine science is much, much harder. It is way harder to get to the deepest part of the ocean. And it's much less explored, by the way. So yes, the space is vast. So the ocean, the one planet we have depends on it. But it's no, no, no, it's not ocean science. Um, but yeah, just singing worms and octopus and crabs and fishes and all these things. I mean, it's got to be like, you must have seen brand new species because that's how we, yeah, we just don't explore it that well. And just that by itself is cool. Yeah, so when I was at Monterey Bay Aquarium in Bari, do you know Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute, because of the geography there, they can go to the deep sea just offshore. Like it just the drop offshore of Monterey is really steep. So they can do a day. 

A deep sea exploration and come right back to shore later in the day. So I've gone out with them as well, but I didn't go down. I was just on the vessel and we sent, um, remotely operated vehicles. They discover something all the time because they're going out there all the time. They're a new species. So crazy and fascinating and ran. Oh cool. I would have been so scared. I was also so scared at first, just that moment of, OK, too late. Yeah, above me. And then once I was under, it's just the adrenaline was going. So it's so dark you really, really can't see you just like. I guess we'll talk so that I can know people are here. Well, inside the, inside Alvin, there was a light for us. OK, good press. You couldn't see anything outside until the pilot turned on the light. I'm not afraid of a lot of things. That does not sound fun. That sounds scary. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Our next topic is horror movies, which you already told us you love, and so all I can picture is like turn the light off for a second and then turn the lights back on. There's just like this big giant like something in my one eye thing looking at you. Oh man, so are we gonna ask you if what your one favorite horror movie is, is that, I mean, I think we have to, we talked about it on the Halloween special. Yeah, yeah, of all the ones there are so many good ones. See, why do you keep putting me in this position? I know it's like the theme of the episode is because we want to see what you're so cool. I wanna see what you like. No, seriously, I said that before. I'm afraid to ask you more questions because we keep finding cool things out. I know, right, like whatever it is. Well, actually, my favorite horror movie was the one I was in and you know that a thriller video. I was one of the dance with me. I was. It's so funny. I really like The Conjuring series. So, but I like old school ones. I was just watching The Shining the other night. I like yeah, yeah. Um, the funny Dawn of the Dead. So the original, the original, the very first one, but you know, in the cabin, not everything that came after even you say a black and white. Yeah, Don and the dead. It was so funny. Really, I mean, the grandmother in the basement. 

Yeah I talk to him and then he cut arm cut off and you put on, come on, chain. I just laughed the whole time. Honestly, sometimes that is absolutely a joy and I love like, if you've seen Cabin in the Woods, that is like homage to making fun of how silly those movies are, and it's just, it's brilliant. It's brilliantly funny. I love it. So I love when there's humor. Intentional or otherwise, otherwise, yeah, it was purposely funny, I think, I think maybe it scared some people. Evil Dead, the black and white. I still appreciate that. It was it was heavy. If you actually pay attention to the storyline. It's scary. One of the early zombie movies and I love zombies. I love zombies and Supernatural. Those are my favorite, not Blood and Gore necessarily. Yeah, I'm not a big slasher person. No, I'm not a huge slasher person. So those are among, I can't pick one, but those are some of my. Some of my favorites. Well, you're definitely a multifaceted person. And we've had, you're so you're like the 3rd or 4th poet we've had on recently. So, from scientific papers to poetry, are you, do you still do much poetry or is it just something for fun? Do you read them out loud ever? It's just for fun. When they occur to me, I might be walking the dog or something and I write it down. So not as, not as much as I used to, but I do it for fun. Actually, last night I just judged the poetry contest for youth poetry contest. And when I was in the deep sea, I did a poetry contest for the middle school. Seriously, so one of the ways I translated. I wish everyone could see Nic's face right now. One of the ways, so I would do calls from the deep to answer questions for kids, but I also would, well, I don't even know if it was a call to blog back our daily log of science, and then I'd ask kids, to explain it back to me. Like, what did you learn? But write it in a poem. And so then I had them do poetry too. It's like you left brain; right brain is really important to me. Left brain, right brain, you solve problems better if you're using both sides of your brain. You have to be creative and logical. Agreed, right? 100%, yes. So, I'm still a poet, just not every day. It's cool. Oh man, that's cool. I forgot I told you all this. Did I tell you all these things? I don't maybe you did, maybe Marley stalked you. I have no idea. She's good at her job. Yeah. But now I probably identify most now as a mother. I mean, yes, I'm a marine scientist and a poet, but. Two teenagers in high school at this point. So, I don't know how you have time for all this. It also says in our notes that you're playing guitar and learning and doing puzzles also. I was bored. I was bored. Well, I shouldn't say bored, but I, I just want to do something different. I'm not musically defined at all. 

Oh, I like that you're sort of pushing yourself there. But I love languages. And so this guitar instructor is teaching it like a language. He really pushed, learned or you're just you're, you have an instructor, you're not just like fiddling around. That's 30 minutes a week when I can, um, because sometimes I'm traveling. So it's been more like 30 minutes a month at this point. But I'm getting into it because I'm learning the music. As a language, yeah, so that's been, that's been fun. I can play, uh, I don't know, Twinkle Twinkle little star, you could do right now. I don't know. So I'm getting, I'm getting there. And now I've got my thumb involved, both hands. I'm, I'm getting there. It is. It's a really cool thing. That's awesome. Well, we are running out of time. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about or share with us before we let you go? Well, I just want to say thanks again for having me. And we did cover a lot. So it's been fun. Yeah, this has been really great. I'm, I'm inspired, and I think Nic and I, we need to take the podcast to the deep sea cruise. Yeah, I think that's, yeah, very fair. Maybe that's how we get people to submit their field stories. I don't know. Yeah. We'll read them from the bottom of the ocean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll have a contest for best story, um. Awesome. So last thing. Oh, there we go, perfect. Yeah. And uh where can people get in touch with you? You can reach me at L L A F E A R@NEAQ.org. You can also visit NEAQ.org to learn more about the New England Aquarium, and I'm also on LinkedIn. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really fun. Nice to meet you all. That's our show. Thank you, Letise, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Bye. See you, everybody.