Establishing Trust, Rediscovering Humanity, and Planet Pragmatism with Mark Coleman

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Mark Coleman, Author, Planet Pragmatism and Director of Advanced Energy Advisory and Innovation with TRC Companies about Establishing Trust, Rediscovering Humanity, and Planet Pragmatism.  Read his full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
 2:45 - Delightful things
10:08 - Interview with Mark Coleman
20:32 - How to work through all the Noise
29:22 - How do you build Trust with doubtful people
47:06 - Fieldnotes with Mark!

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Mark Coleman at https://www.markcolemaninsights.com/

Guest  Bio:
Mark C. Coleman is an award-winning author and recognized voice as a business and leadership advisor, entrepreneur, and educator specializing in sustainable change management and enterprise development. With over 25 years of experience, he inspires both current and future leaders to embrace principled leadership founded on pragmatism, dignity, trust, and accountability. He has served as a strategic advisor to numerous leading organizations across academia, industry, emerging enterprises, and government, focusing on the intersection of societal change, environmental risk, and sustainable innovation. 

Mr. Coleman currently serves as Director of Advisory and Innovation within TRC’s Advanced Energy (AE) business segment where he works with leaders across the organization and with partners and clients to strategically advance best-in-class integrated solutions to complex energy and business challenges. His work is focused on the nexus of energy and environmental innovation and the emergent sustainable economy, marked by solutions which are decarbonized, digital, decentralized, and which also embody social impact, environmental justice, and economic equity at their foundation.

As the founder of Convergence Mitigation Management (CMM), a high-impact business intelligence, strategy, and management consultancy, Mr. Coleman provides custom advisory services to entrepreneurs, small and medium sized businesses, government, applied research, and non-governmental organizations.

In July 2025 Mr. Coleman published his 4th book, Planet Pragmatism: The New Path to Prosperity. Mark currently serves as a Board Member of Ecology Prime, a global platform catalyzing ecologic education, outreach, and communications. He also serves on the Board of Trustees for Cayuga Community College and as an adjunct instructor of Entrepreneurship and Emerging Enterprise at the Whitman School of Management at Syracuse University where he teaches undergraduate and graduate level courses in Sustainable Enterprise. Mr. Coleman resides in the Finger Lakes region of New York with his wife and two sons. 

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Mu

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR! Your favorite environmental enthusiasts, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Laura and I try to talk about delightful things. We don't, we don't do a great job. Yes, yes, uh, we also interview Mark Coleman on establishing trust, rediscovering humanity in his book Planet Pragmatism. And finally, In the spirit of loafing about, let's talk elephant seals. First of all, they truly are huge, clocking in at over 4.5 tons, which, let that sink in. Seriously, go look at an image of them next to a person. It's unreal how large they are. They can dive to depths of over 5000 ft and hold their breath for up to 2 hours, spending about 80% of their lives at sea, right? That's super cool, very neat, but how they sleep. is what truly makes them unique. They actually sleep like we do. They're not like dolphins where they can turn off half their brain and rest that while the other half is, you know, doing all of the other work. No, no, no, they We first initiate a dive, start diving. Then During the dive. They initiate a slow wave sleep state, which progresses to REM sleep. And once they get into REM sleep, they lose body position and start corkscrewing down. To the depths, they wake back up before they hit the bottom and then go hunting to the surface. Where they breathe. What, which is crazy, and I'll take a bed over that if given the choice. I uh. I still don't even understand that, but that is what they do. So, there you go. How about that?

Hit that music. 

NAEP just completed another round of essential and advanced NEPA workshops. The next workshops are scheduled for November 13th and 14th in Denver, Colorado. These training workshops are designed for emerging and experienced environmental professionals engaged in the preparation of environmental assessments and environmental impact statements to fulfill federal lead agency responsibilities pursuant to the National Environmental Policy Act. This course is designed to help you understand the requirements and how to fill the spirit and legislative intent of NEPA. That's absolutely essential as agency policies are updating rapidly. Please check out the webinar at www.NEPA.org.

 Let's get to our segment.

So Laura. Yes, Nic. What should we talk about? He didn't come with a topic. No, not even, not even at all. I was hoping I would throw you had one assignment. Did I have to come up with this? Like, come on. No, I'm gaslighting you right now. Yeah. Oh, I see. Yeah, that would make sense that I wouldn't get it. Um. I don't know. I'm trying to think, we talked a lot about humanity. In our interview, it was really great. It was just like a delightful, almost philosophical conversation, that is probably hitting the nail right on the head to describe Mark Coleman. Delightful. He's just delightful. So maybe, I mean, maybe that's our topic today. Maybe it's delightful things, you know, we've talked a lot about, we talked about a lot of scary stuff last time, which makes total sense cause, you know, Halloween and all, we're recording this officially on Halloween, don't tell anyone that it's coming out later, but I don't know, it's funny like I think you we've had long weeks, you know, there's always long weeks when we work. And, you know, sometimes it's like trying to think of things that are delightful, like, what are things you enjoyed even in a bad week and how that translates to how you feel about what you do. But I'm trying to think of like what was the delightful thing that happened this week and I don't know, I don't know if I'm going up that thing that just happened was so delightful. Yeah, like this was the most fun I think I had. Oh, that's sad. I don't know. I feel like I, though, I don't know if it's the older I get, or it's just over time. Building my life the way I want it is a delight in itself, and it's almost a little bit selfish to um incur the problems that I incur. I love all of my business partners. 

I would consider you one. You know, this, this happened the other day. Um, I was doing a career retreat, delightful, delightful students, delightful program that they have. And somebody asked me in sort of our hangout downtime, we're just chilling in this cabin talking and I walked in a conversation where they were talking about, do you have best friends, which I think related to the conversation we have with Mark about the world today and socializing and stuff. It seems almost like crazy question, you know, before technology, yeah, you had a best friend, you know, um, and it was a group of people of varied ages as well, but most of them said no. Like, no, yeah, like I like I have friends, but I don't have a best friend, and clearly people's definition of best friend could be different or skewed maybe from what they're seeing online, like you think like all these movies where it shows like A best friend is someone you're just with 24/7 and you know, maybe that maybe I have a different definition of best friends because I would consider you one of my best friends. And so I walk and I'm like, uh, I have lots of best friends. They're like, what? You can't possibly, but maybe, you know, my definition of best friend doesn't fit theirs. Right, not just fair. I think that's fair. It's funny, I have, I would consider like I say, I have very few close friends, and that's probably how I would describe it. And I would describe you as a very close friend. And I think I have a, I have a best friend because we met in high school, and we're still friends. And so that by default makes him my best friend. His kids call me Uncle Nic, I consider them my nephews and niece, and, uh, it's kind of funny how you'd say that. But no, to me it's, but like, do I talk to him every day? No. Do I talk to him once a week? Debatable. By the way, I knew his wife before him, which is the funniest thing about that whole thing, but we'll talk and she'll be like, so how's Nic? And he's like, I don't know. She's like, you guys were on the phone for like an hour. I'm like, yeah. We didn't talk about anything. 

Nothing important. We were just like, you know, zombies or whatever, you know, that's what we're supposed to do. And so yeah, that's kind of, uh, I think about that a lot, you know, there's people that you're acquaintances with, people that you have good working relationships with, but yeah, I, I don't know. I hope that's not the case. I hope it's not like we're getting away from having true friends, cause that would make me very sad cause I don't, I don't even understand that honestly. And maybe that's how we grow up and out of relevance is kind of like, and that's the thing I worry about all the time. It's like technology is here. We're gonna have people, like we talked about, that never knew not having it, and we're kind of already seeing them start to get into the workforce. So what, what happens when they're in charge? And how does that change the way we do things? That's really important. Because you gotta kind of learn, right? That's the way things are gonna go, but that's maybe a little too nihilistic for our delightful conversation. But I don't know. I think it's kind of neat how we perceive things in different ways based on our life experience and where we are in our lives. You know, you talked about, you get older and you're just much more comfortable with who you are and what you want, what you like and don't, and you can articulate that a lot better than when you're younger. And I think that's kind of, I had that happen to me this week. I got to articulate a point of view of mine. It was not received the way I had hoped, but it also didn't, like, I'm not. 

Lost on that because I know what that means, you know, it's like, oh, this is not a person that I need to worry about to, you know, being an ally or trusting or whatever. I can just be like, OK, you, you know, this is not important, and I can move on. Whereas as a younger person, you're kind of stuck there going, how come they don't like me, you know. Which is different. It's just I mean that again goes back to, is this an age thing or just overtime thing, right? Yeah, I don't know. It's just like you work long enough, maybe you start to learn those things, you know, what's actually important. I don't know how he got on there from starting from delight, but it's kind of funny how. You know, like we talk about like whether people like you or not, right? Like there is a, it's important to be somewhat liked, right? You have to have some allies in any company, any business that you're in, but you don't need every person that works for you to like you or to be your best friend. Uh, but you can, you know, you can work with people who are very different than you in lots of ways and still manage to get things done and get them done well. And I think sometimes that's lost, especially when I was younger, I was like, everyone must like me and That's not realistic, even for the most charming person in the world, not realistic. Yeah, that's a tough one for people pleasers. I don't know who that would be though, that wouldn't be me. I've never done that. I know, I just hit a nerve. No, no, that's just so funny, that's definitely what I was like when I started, for sure. And then you start to realize you can't be that way. If you really want to get things done, you cannot be that way. It's not that you have to completely change who you are, but you got to learn how to manage it. Yeah. So again, back to delightful. Yeah. No, no, no, I know this is the funniest thing that's kind of how our world is, right? No, but I did have my second niece was born this week, so that was delightful. That is delightful. Yeah, I'm excited to see her grow. So we did it. We got circled back to delightful delight, you know, my brother might be mad. It took me this long, but you know. Hey, sometimes you got to do what it takes to find those happy thoughts. Right. Ah, so yes, there is joy. There's always joy. 

Let's get to our interview, please. Yeah, let's do that. 

Hello and welcome back to EPR. Today we have Mark Coleman with us. Mark is the director of advisory and innovation at TRC Companies and the author of his new book, Planet Pragmatism The New Path to Prosperity. Welcome, Mark. Thanks, Nic. It's great to join EPR today and uh a pleasure to be here. Yeah, yeah, it's great to have you for sure. And it's lots of places we could start. You had a very long career with lots of fun different things going on. But you know, we talked about your book. I mean, why don't we just start there? Tell us a little bit about Plant Pragmatism. Yeah, thank you so much. This book, uh, you know, was something that was seeping deep in my soul for longer than I realized. It's actually my 4th book that I've published. I published 3 other titles before this, and this 4th book came out in July of this year. It was one of those things where it was working in the background of, uh, my consciousness without even knowing. And I'll say in a very simple way is, last September, I had an arm injury at my home, and I ended up tearing my bicep between, uh, the bicep and the forearm. Yeah, I'll spare you and the, and the listeners all the details of that. But what it did is, you know, it sidelined my brain for a brief period of time. And I started writing again. My prior book was published in 2020, a book called The Dignity Doctrine. And I kind of sat quiet for a while in terms of my extracurricular love of writing and trying to capture what's going on in society and apply my business and entrepreneurial life to some lessons learned around the greater social and economic story that's happening all around us right now. And, you know, during this time, what happened was I picked up the pen again proverbially and started writing. 

And so, a few blogs later, some deeper dives into some Conversations with colleagues and friends, some additional research and then before you know it, I was contacting some good friends about, I think I have a book here and I'd like to publish it because I believe in what it's about and really want to share it with the world. So this book really, what it does is it, it takes a deeper dive into sustainability and sustainable enterprise across my 25, 30 year career and in a way that is self-effacing. And what I mean is, I don't think that we've solved many of our grand challenges. I think we've actually, as a society and the economy only perseverated them and persisted many of them through structural issues that we have through institutions and all kinds of elements that we could discuss here today. And what I wanted to do was try to get to a root cause, not just on sustainability, but in a way of how can we provoke a different way of critical thought and thinking in a productive way, particularly given the swift political and polarizing swings that we're seeing throughout society here domestically in America, but even throughout the world, it's causing deep divide and divisiveness. And as I went through that train of thought, I really began to explore the idea of prosperity and the idea of achieving a higher prosperity through quality of life, through this lens of sustainability, something that's been dear to me for my career in a different way. And what I began to discover, Nic, was planet pragmatism and this pursuit of sustainability don't have to be at odds with one another. We can have economic prosperity and we can pursue a higher quality of life through the image of leadership and more grounded principles in sustainability in a very meaningful way. It doesn't always have to be at contention or odds with our values or beliefs, whether political, religious, spiritual or otherwise. But we do have to. begin to listen to one another in a deeper way, we do need to begin to understand how we can reach a common resolve, what I call common sense for the common good in the book, uh, through principles of planet pragmatism. 

So this book was really in its heart, an attempt to, that just put out another sustainability book that says thou shall do all these great things and the world will be a better place, but really look inward to us as individual citizens and consumers and a broader construct of society and say, we have to go to therapy together. We have to, uh, you know, have some deeper conversations in a productive way, and we can accomplish these goals, but we have to, in a sense, lay down our arms and be willing to listen to each other. Yeah, and it's, gosh, there's so many different ways. I can go there, not least of which is when you lose the ability to use one hand or arm, how difficult some things become, opening jars, for example, uh, you know, but no, I really do think it's neat that you had an experience that kind of let you sit back a bit and you let your mind kind of go where it needed to. But you talk about like, you know, us doing group therapy as a society. Like I, I think a lot about individually, if you sit down with one person and you talk to them, you'll find things that you can agree on. Generally, it's just what happens, right? It's just natural for us to come to some agreement about something. It's much harder to do with groups. So how do we do that? Because it sounds great, and I want to do it, but how do we, what is the actual process for starting that healing in a way? Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's the evergreen question around this topic in many ways because we haven't solved for it, right? You look over thousands of years and you know, you look at ancient civilizations fast forward to today, and that seems to be an area that we're still struggling in many ways, right? And we've had large geopolitical constructs like the United Nations, we've had different forms of governments that have tried to accomplish this and then you, you know, cascade that down through civil society throughout the world and We can't seem to agree on many things in different ways, right?

So, but you said an important thing, which is, I think at the individual level, the fundamental characteristics of how we build trust within society through individuals, and I believe that trust is the preeminent parameter in many ways of establishing goodwill and making sure that we can live in Civil terms and with civil with each other as neighbors, as well as how that cascades out to broader society. So I think, you know, we do have an opportunity here, and I think all of us are looking for a sense of belonging, a sense of identity, a sense of, you know, where we are going into the future, and we may not agree on the path and how we get there in totality, but we can certainly agree that we do share these certain elements of wanting to succeed. In an individual sense, and certainly in a selfish individual sense, but also in a collective sense, because that collective sense that also gives rise to individual identity and also individual security and sustainability within society. In a sense, we can't do it all alone. It can't all be on our shoulders. To the point, I didn't know we would begin here with regards to the arm, but when one injures their arm, they need help from others, right? And you start to look at your situation. Within society, much different. I love to cook for my family. I, in many ways, do a lot of household related items for my family. So when I was sidelined for weeks and having my wife to take on more responsibilities, that was humbling to me. It was frustrating. But then when I got over those elements of my own selfishness in a way in terms of that identity of who I am, I began to realize, hey, it's OK to allow others to step in and they're going to do things different. And That's OK, right? And we have to allow room for that. Oh, by the way, in that sense of differentness, even though I'm making a very small individualistic example of this, you discover, hey, somebody might make you dinner better than I at times, right? Or you know, uh, yeah, exactly, or it's OK if certain things don't get done. So, you know, but pertaining to the heart of your question, I think it's this idea that humanity at its fundamental core, I think really in my sense of conversations I've had with people within the local community. Discovering how coalitions are built at a local level as well as through other institutions, whether that's corporate engagement, whether that's public-private partnerships. I've done a lot of work in academia, I've done a lot of work in the corporate sphere. I've done a lot of work in government elements and also at the intersection of converging. diverse stakeholders across different sectors together over the course of my career. And I think fundamentally what we have is different constructs of points of view and different constructs of hierarchy in terms of intellectual thought and how decisions could get made. 

But when you strip a lot of that away, Human nature is one that begins with the heart and mind. And in the book, I talk about this in terms of leading with the heart, not just this analytical framework that we're deep immersed and steeped in right now, right? So we, we tend to view data in this AI driven focused society around machine to machine, and the idea that everything should be productive and everything should be fast and furious. Behind All that is our desire to really be human with each other, uh, to be connected, to be engaging, and to be solving problems in constructive ways, right? So I don't think there's inherent evil or desire to harm others in the nature of our relationships. I think what we have to do is strip away a lot of the noise that we see in our world. In the book, I've talked about this in specific chapters around AI and a data-driven society. And I do a lot of, you know, writing and, and teaching in this space too, but the idea that we live in a noisy world right now, it's noisier than say when you and I were kids and we could talk at length about that in many ways. And I fear for our younger generation, our children, and the next generation in this regard, but what I see is a need for us to strip away that noise and get back to the heart of the humanistic nature that drives our connection. And when we can do that, we can begin to get more connected in the feeling elements of what we're trying to accomplish and allow that to be a baseline by which we can move solid decisions and more civil conduct forward. It's really interesting. I do think we do have a lot of noise in our environment. I do think we have, like I say, it's very, very different than when we were kids, and I do think that's, it's interesting to kind of grow up seeing what the internet, not having it for a time. I remember not having it, and then I remember how it kind of became what it is, and it's kind of interesting to have that perspective. And now it's always been there. And that is a really big shift. It is a different mentality that people have. 

In regards to what it is and how it works and how well, how much it helps us, I guess what I'm trying to ask is, you know, it would be great to get rid of the noise, but if people consider that noise to be their life and their livelihood from day one, how do we do that? Like, how do we talk to people about maybe not, I don't even mean disconnecting, but you know, sifting through something that big. So in the book, I talk about it in terms of tapping ancient wisdom, something that I think is already encoded in each of us, although we don't necessarily manifest it on a daily basis. And so I think inherently, we love that desire for connection I was talking about. I think we lead with the heart because we have this sense of feeling and connectedness as human beings that brings our identity and sense of belonging forward. And I think what we're seeing is a disconnection between Both the teaching, the celebration, and the, you know, cultivation of those attributes in humans in many ways through our technologically enabled world. And we're not doing it necessarily on purpose, it's just that we've forgotten that these are important virtues that we want to connect with, right? And so, I think how we get back to it a little bit is things that you've already said, finding time for pause and reflection, making sure that we don't have to be fully disconnected, but I think the digitally, but I think it's the idea of, yeah, let's give the brain a rest. Let's find that time for creative expression and being able to connect with humans in very tangible, real humanistic ways, not just vis a vis, you know, through the computer or all the technology that we have today. And what I find is that people are Doing that. I think that people are inherently stepping back away from these tools and finding that space where they can coexist both using the optimization and the value that these tools create while they're rediscovering what it is to be human. 

And I think The years during COVID began to illuminate some of those. You saw people going outside into nature more, you saw people taking up new hobbies, you saw people online celebrating how they were cooking new foods or whatever hobby they were immersing themselves in, but yet, technology offered them that pathway to want to share it with the world because it gave them that identity, that belonging, that purpose that they wanted to feel also and and be able to celebrate that in a, in a social way. So we have to understand that technology is a double-edged sword, right? In many ways, it gets to the heart of what I'm describing here in terms of how we need more human connection. And I think a lot of technological supporters believe in that mission around the world that we've created and manifested here. But then we also have to recognize that there's that dark side, there is that mindless scrolling, there is that noisy oscillations that occur where, you know, OK, after a full day of just hearing the fear factor of the news cycle and other elements, that doesn't necessarily help our cause, right? And it may make a Miserable. It may make us disconnected and divisive, and we might just start to fear our neighbor in ways that we never even thought possible. We don't really fear them, but the world is telling us that maybe there's something that we need to be fearful of, and, and that's unfortunate. So we, we have to reach deep into that DNA that we have that says, hey, I'm still in control. I still have autonomy and agency to make decisions within my own virtues and values. And I have to be present and show up to my own life to be authentic and to be accountable to the behaviors that I have. I can't just fall to the whims of this world that's being fed to me 24/7. I have to separate. separate myself from that in a productive way. And if that means reaching out to another individual, getting engaged in a local community project or with a not for profit or doing some extracurricular enriching work, like, you know, creative writing or getting involved with the right arts or music or whatever it might be that feeds your soul. 

My recommendation is finding that space to get involved with that and rediscover your soul and allow that piece of you to come through, so that you can temper those noisy oscillations. But the beauty and all that, Nic, is that what that ends up doing is it allows you to then kind of be like the phoenix coming from the ashes of this digital society and rise up again, right in a way that you're like, oh my gosh, I used to love doing these things. And I, now I want to share them with the world and I want to get more immersed with whatever it might be, right? I'll tell you this quick anecdote, you know, I find with my, my two sons, for example, their age group, you know, 117, he's making the transition to, from a senior to collegiate life here in the next year. His brother is 15 years old. They both love old music. They both love vinyl records. They're rediscovering themselves. And, and by the way, these were things that I didn't even have, right? I remember when I was very young. My aunt, the great aunt Peg from North Carolina who got me the Van who got me Van Halen's album, their first album, uh, yeah, but it was a vinyl, right? But this is when cassettes were coming out, and I was so disappointed that Christmas because I was like, I really wanted the cassette. My sister had the record player, you know, she had Michael Jackson, Madonna, and I'm like, but I wanted to be mobile with my Sony Walkman, right? But long story short, they're rediscovering all that and it's just. So cool to see. But what I also see is that they're engaging with those friend groups, you know, and things like playing in the local community, getting out and just like playing hide and seek. And you're like, really? But they're doing it, and they're doing it with phones and they're finding creative ways and new ways to kind of make what was old and new again, but in the image of what gives them pleasure. But it's social, it's engaging, and it's ways that they're growing up. 

So I just find that fascinating because I think people are yearning for that connection, and I think we're beginning to see it play out more and more. That's very cool. Absolutely. I was pretty disappointed when I heard recently that people were buying CDs again. I was like, I sold mine 20 years ago. Yeah, I know. We could do really well, you know, selling our CD collections that we got rid of, you know. You're just so funny because you have no idea, right? You just never think like, oh yeah, this is, this old technology is going to become new again. I don't even understand why you'd want a CD. Like, I do not get that. My understanding is that they just want something they can hold on to. Like, you don't get the artwork. I missed the artwork of the albums like, you know, and I feel like that they're just, they want something they can keep and have because you don't have that one, it's just digital. Yeah, that's totally true. It's true. I think you're right, Laura. I, I love that because I think of my younger son who loves Frank Sinatra. Yeah, he, he's even going back, even, you know, that was something I heard at my grandparents' house when I was a kid, but it was anything that I cultivated. I was like, OK, Led Zeppelin, this is where it's at, you know, where, you know, right? And, uh, because he likes the lyrics and he loves, like you said, the artwork and the old school feel that it provides, and it's just, it's wild. So this is the flip side of the social media though, like, Frank Sinatra lives because I can scroll and search and I'm looking for songs to put on my videos. I'm like, What's this? Oh, that's Frank Sinatra. I, you know, if maybe if we didn't have this virtual world, Frank would be history. Totally, I totally agree. And I, and I think that's what's kind of interesting about this equation of like being a double-edged sword. I think there's enormous beauty in what it can enable when we're using it in a way that we kind of bring that joy forward in our lives and we want to share that. with the world. And again, I think just being mindful of the downside that it can contribute when we're, you know, not feeling healthy in terms, and I think I can't speak for everyone, but I think we have seen in the past few years, a greater mental health crisis predicated on a lot of The noisy oscillations through our digital media more than ever before because people, I don't think we were engineered to be antennae and recipients of mass culture in the way that it's been delivered, right? 

Absolutely. There's no turning it off. I would sometimes I could just be off. Well it's not, I wouldn't even argue like, and this is one thing I wanted to kind of talk about. We talked about trust, right? You mentioned that earlier, and I would say like for me it's, there's a perception versus reality, right? But we're getting hit with every perception in all kinds of realities. And I think an example of that is, you know, like I say, I'm in the DC area and there are some people who have a perception of the city itself, and then you show up and you're like, oh, this is nothing at all like what I thought it was. And it's like, OK, so that's maybe where you have a frame of reference. Maybe not everything we're hearing is good or healthy or correct, but then it's, how do you build trust with people who aren't going to do that, aren't gonna take that next step, aren't going to do, go into, well, is this actually a true report or is this someone just telling me something? And I think that's the hard part for me in Understanding that it's not something to be overtly negative about because that's, you know, people don't like it when you're mean to them. That's a true statement. So how do we handle stuff like that? How do you build that trust? Well, Mike Mark's other book Time to Trust. Yeah this is true. So my 2014 book was called Time to Trust Mobilizing Humanity for a Sustainable Future, and I really, you know, delve deep into that topic, Nic, as a category in terms of trying to establish, build, maintain trust at all levels, right? And it does begin with that individual, and by the way, when I say individual, it's not just peer to peer trust building, it's starting with yourself. Yeah. We don't talk enough about the internal turmoil that we put ourselves through from kind of like a behavioral psychological perspective, right? We oftentimes when you're building trust, you have to work on yourself as much as you're seeking that trust in another partner, whether that's a peer, whether that's a marriage, whether that's a relationship with you and your siblings or family. or your workplace, your boss, etc. and then cascade that out to broader society, which you're getting at as well, which is, I, as I always said, it's amazing with 8.5 billion people, we all proverbially, I know, you know, that's a big generalized statement, but it's amazing the world gets up and works every day. It doesn't have more issues than we already do. We have plenty. Right, but it's actually quite remarkable. So, and again, I think this gets back to understanding thyself and being able to communicate clearly and live your life with a set of priorities and principles, but not being fearful of communicating those with others and allowing that space with others, right? And so, your example of DC and I think the idea of There is the sense of nefarious activity that's being bred through certain channels on the digital cultural side, right, that's kind of telling the world, hey, this is really what's going in, but when you fixate on it, it's like, well, that's in one small block of one big city and you're trying to cascade that into a, a national narrative of fear. 

And I think what we have to realize is that our digital culture is a microcosm of society and that there's Going to be good and bad actors across the entire spectrum, right? And that sometimes the algorithms are placating, and this has been proven and shown that demonstrating some of that noise, I call it, you know, but the bad actors in this case, helps drive profitability. It helps drive viewership. People want to be thinking and seeing that chaos may be ensuing in society when really it's not. Because if you told them they're not, then I'm not gonna look at the app. I'm not gonna pay attention. I'm not gonna go to more reels, right? Um, and that's not going to be more revenue for advertisers and everything else. So we have to have that critical thought and judgment, and that's again, a skill that we need to be teaching our younger generation, but it's also a skill that we can't forget as people have been through these cycles of technological evolution to remind ourselves, hey, we can fall victim to the scenario they're playing out. But we also have to then come back to that inner trust and say, whom do I believe? What do I believe? And My good conscience might say, maybe I can dig deeper and determine the facts for myself, and maybe I'll go visit there and make an assumption for myself of what's happening, right? And not be fearful of the world, but be inquisitive, be curious, be grateful, and be able to step into it in such a way that you can own. Your trust and cascade that trust to others. And the more that we're reflecting that trust through ourselves in terms of our relationships and what we expect of others, the more we're going to be receiving it back. If we get to a place in society where that continuity begins to truly erode. I believe we have a very, very big problem. There is definitely a trust issue when it comes to our institutions and a lot that's playing out in society, but we can't forget at the end of the day as citizens and consumers that we harness the power of that trust. We are the trust broker. If we let that go, we've lost the reins on where we're going into the future, and, and that can be very frightening. 

And then I don't think we're there yet. I think, again, I think what I see from an individual and societal basis. People want to trust in their neighbor, in their relationships, and what's going on. But what we have bombarding us every day is a element of the world that's skewed, that's trying to challenge that notion of who we are and then who are they, right? But in a sense, that system, that self-reinforcing system that is trying to focus some of these amissive issues with a microscope on society is trying to eat away at that trust within us, and we can't let that happen. Absolutely. That's absolutely how it feels all the time. Especially now with AI mixed and everything, I watch things and you don't, it's like you being gas lit by social media. Is this real? Is playing tricks on my brain. You know, I, I live in New York City and then I've seen reels of all these floods and blah, blah, blah and I'm. I didn't experience any of that. Does that mean it didn't happen? Or does that mean that I'm in my own little bubble over here? What is, what is going on? And then it's hard to tell if this is footage from another, another rainstorm, another country. We saw that with the Jamaica hurricane. It was like there was a storm in India at the same time, or maybe it wasn't the same time, but that kept coming up as like You know, and it's trying to make your brain think that this is what's happening right this moment. And then you see pictures of Jamaicans dancing in the rain because they're having a great time. So like, what is the reality? Yeah, you know, there was another author, his name is Rodney Bullard. I think I have his name correct. I hope I do, Rodney, because I once met him a few years back at Syracuse University, and I cannot remember the name of his book, but he spoke about a concept that always sat with me, that was talking about the 3 ft of influence and person has. So if you put your arms out, extend them right, and you turn around in a circle, and he was using this as a metaphor to talk about all these things that challenge us on a personal level. And, and of course, this context was slightly different, but I want to adapt it here because I sometimes use this with my classes that I teach, and I sometimes use it in business settings, because I do think it's so valuable. We often Confound our story and our element of trust and our personal views on ourselves and the world that we're living in with this connotation of what's being fed to us through our social filters, right? So like, oh my gosh, this is happening today and inherently somewhere in our soul and our heart, we're absorbing that pain body. 

When in really, what's within our 3 ft of influence, right? What can we influence? what's touching us? What can we have an impact and influence and touch in a productive way with something else? And if you get back to that grounding and sense of what's happening with you right now, likelihood is that that fear is going to be taken away, that you're safe, hopefully. That all is OK, that you actually have great support around you, for the most part, I think for a lot of people. And then even if you are feeling a pain, you have the opportunity to extinguish that pain with the support of, you know, loved ones around your opportunities. And if you don't, there's an opportunity to reach out for help, right? So when we view the world at such a macro level continuously, that is just such an absorption of enormous pain bodies in such a way that again, Humans aren't built to deal individually on dealing with all that. So you're, you're both are absolutely correct, and I think it comes back to these things could definitely be happening, Laura, as you pointed out, but I think we have to constructively ask ourselves through that lens of critical thought and say, is it impacting me? How much do I care about the issue? If I have loved ones in harm's way and I do internalize it in a way that I can have an impact and should have an impact, that's a decision tree I want to go down, right? But if it's something that's out there, it's not that I don't care, but I also have to recognize I can't absorb all that all day long because that's not going to make me a productive citizen or consumer, but it's also not going to make me a productive. 

Friend, colleague, husband, wife, anything, right, to the people that are within your 3 ft of influence on any given day. So, yeah, just a way to think about that, that I always find useful. Absolutely, that, that is useful and I think anything that people can do to continually recognize what's within their control and not within their control and understand that not every problem has to be your problem. Um, anyone who Who's listened to the show in a long time knows that I always reflect my, my perspective lens comes from Little House on the Prairie, and I'm always like, OK, in that time period, what did they know about the world? In general, it took you, you read what was in the newspaper and you might have gotten, you know, the telephone was invented during the show. So prior to that, you didn't even, like, where did your news come from? And it was so little and so few. And could you even read? And now we have so much knowledge and so much information. It's just, it's exponentially grown and back to what Nic said earlier, like, we accept this as the way it is and always was, and it isn't. So, you know, is one or the other better? I don't think one is. It's just, it just is, and you have to understand what the caveats are, I guess. But I want to jump into like your actual work before we run out of time. OK, I know Mark, and what does he do? looks. And uh so, so how does all of this, or does it play into your work at TRC and your teaching? Yeah, thank you for the question. And by the way, I want to come back to you on Little House on the Prairie sometime we'll take that offline. I love it. We watched the series again as a family and you know, you know, um, you know. Yeah, exactly. We'll take a trip to Mankato anyway, um, the reboot is coming. That's a whole another conversation. Oh gosh, that's lovely. Um, so. Yeah, no, great question, because this all in my world has always been interconnected, right? I don't necessarily see, and this has been a challenge in a from a career perspective, maybe not from the lens of others, maybe looking at my career, but I think sometimes, you know, having multiple interests across being an entrepreneur or being somebody who's been an adjunct faculty member at Syracuse University. Somebody who's been in industry for a long period of time and currently working at TRC, you know, and helping with the energy transition across multiple industrial sectors, you know, it's a complex mosaic, but for me, the richness has been in the experience across all those different elements, right? 

Creatively, as well as intellectually, as well as, you know, somebody who hopefully is contributing to the evolution. of or advancement and evolution of all those different elements in a very productive way, the best that I can. So, the heart of, you know, writing books and being able to encapsulate that has been something that's just been stimulating to me for a long time. I've had great former mentors that, you know, were book authors and consultants and advisors that I kind of fell under their wing early in my career and was like, I don't know if I'll ever write a book. Maybe I'll do it after my career, but then lo and behold, I was in my mid-thirties and wrote my first book, The Sustainability Generation, coming out of a sequence of life events that was just like, wow, this just came out and, you know, I guess I'm doing it. Um, you know, and then fast forward to 2014 and then 2020, and now 2025 with four books. And so it's always been a backdrop to, I think my process as a practitioner of sustainability and a consultant. To want to try to assimilate that data and information in a constructive way that tells a story that sometimes is a piece of time and hopefully offers some kind of forecast of the future, you know, in terms of my, my own perspective or lens on these issues. So we're across multiple sectors has been enriching for my career and for me as an individual and then encapsulating that through work like management consulting with TRC and publishing books, has just been icing on the cake in terms of trying to move, move all this forward. I don't know how you keep all of this going all at the same time. You know, I get questions like that. I will address that if you don't mind because I, I get questions on that all the time and I've never had a great answer to it, and I know you work with so many authors, and I think everyone has a different story, particularly in writing, writing books. And for me it's just been something that I think ends up being a release in the sense of, it's like going to the gym. It's like, once I can get out on the page and I can have some peers review it and say, Wow, you know, you captured that well, or you need to work on this some more, it's a way of me working through my own mind in a way that is almost very selfish, but ends up being very serving, which is really quite joyful.

When I get Feedback and people say, wow, that was really interesting, or you changed my point of view in this most recent book, by the way, I received some feedback from some people who might not normally, friends, families, and other members who might not normally pick up a book on sustainability or a discussion around what's happening culturally in that sense around the world today. And the feedback I received from some very staunch conservative perspectives was I like what you're saying. You're making me think about this issue more deeply than I had before, and you're making me come out of this and think, yeah, this idea of prosperity and how we pursue it individually and as a collective society makes sense through this lens that you're talking about now. I, I never thought about it this way. So it's I appreciate that and what I have found is that that feeds the soul and that, and I think anytime we find things drenching to us, we always find ways to make time for it, right? So I will go large spells of time before I write something and Laura, you know this because you often hound me on specific things, but then all of a sudden the creative energy flows and before you know it, you're accomplishing the goals that you need to as well professionally. So It tends to come together. I think we all have different methods and magic that come together to make that mosaic very complete. But make no mistake, it takes time, patience, hard work, and time is the biggest element there. Sometimes you see things that come out with people professionally and creatively, and you're like, oh my gosh, they're crushing it, they're doing all these things. But behind the scenes, there's an army. And, and for listeners here, for this latest book, you know, the army here for me has been Laura. And her team in terms of publishing through Wildebeest Publishing this particular book and the support in terms of marketing, communications and everything else, so I couldn't be more grateful. So thank you for that. And it's been our total pleasure. Yeah. But yeah, so I, I think there's always that element, it's um the joy of it, but then also the hard work and then also the great team that's behind you supporting you along the way. And, and that goes true, by the way, for all my colleagues and all the different sectors I've worked in. 

From TRC currently to Syracuse University and, you know, so many other places, my former employers, I just have so many great colleagues that have celebrated some of the work that I've done and, and likewise, you know, right back to them and it's just been a great partnership across time. Yeah, that's so true. I think anytime you see even someone who's a brand of one person, you don't see the army of people that's created them, but they're doing exactly. And I'm more than happy just to expose that to the world if people didn't already understand or see that because I couldn't be more grateful for all the people in my life who are part of that, by the way, 3 ft of influence in a consequential way. Yeah, it's funny because you say that and it's like, oh, I'm gonna be the next influencer, I'm gonna be the next athlete, I'm gonna be the next whatever, right? The best of the best. You know how hard those people work? You know how often the amount of people they have to convince to do that, even though they're working that hard. It's not just the hard work. It's like it was a hard work and hustle, right? It's those two things we talk about that a lot. So yeah, it's an army. You need an army to be successful no matter what you do. Absolutely, um, but going back to, well, not really directly, but Little House on the Prairie trains. I see there's a note here about you leading a panel on Classroad railroad leaders. What is that? Yeah, no, thanks for bringing it up, and I love the reference to Little House too. Um, actually, and you know, I use that reference with the Class One railroads last year at the railroad Environmental Conference, and the room was like crickets. I'm like, you guys, come on, you guys got to know. So I, I was starting to sweat because I was like, am I saying something off key, off topic. our world that we're living in today was Little House kind of like in the uh in the shade category right now or what I'm like I don't know I don't know about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I was like, uh oh, maybe I started this on the wrong foot. But yeah, so the railroad environmental conference at the University of Illinois Champaign is something that's been happening for a long time, and I've been lucky enough to be a part of a sustainability panel that's been facilitating a conversation around Class 1 railroads for the past 4 years now. 

And I will be going there in a couple of weeks here in November again, facilitating a panel around what's the top of mind issues for them as an industry in this time that we're going through, how are they looking to the future? How are they maintaining their resilience as an industry, plus looking at the future of how they can continue to reduce their impact on the environment and make sure that they're offering a great. Value and opportunity to the customers they serve and the communities in which they serve. So, it's a fascinating industry to me. I mean, it's like one of these, you know, more than a century old, obviously, steeped in all kinds of interesting perspective around the expansion of the United States into new territories, the, you know, economic drivers that built the early part of America and then Fast forward to today in terms of how commodities are safely shipped, you know, from port to port, city to city, intercontinentally now through the railroad system, and it's just fascinating. So, it's a joy to be a part of that. I'm lucky to be part of that conversation and yeah, looking forward to that. That's very cool. That's all really great stuff. We are blazing through time, and we always say they fly by fast, but this has been particularly fast, but we are at our field notes segment now, and we've got to ask you, this is the part of the show where we ask our guests about their memorable moments working. And we are asking all of our listeners to send us their funny, silly, scary stories, and we're putting these all together on the show. So, Mark, you mentioned a story from your early days, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation that taught you, whether you're a boots or shoes kind of professional. What do you mean by that? I love it, yeah. So I was an intern with the, as you mentioned, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, probably between my junior senior year of undergraduate school at Binghamton University. I was working on the Region 7 office in Syracuse, New York on Erie Boulevard. I had a great boss and supervisor, and I was doing some really interesting work at that time with Geographic. 

Information systems, we were mapping, you know, this is like in the mid-nineties for me. We were mapping wetlands and looking at, you know, regulatory oversight in terms of how wetlands were being protected and conserved and whether or not they were the appropriate size to fall under the regulatory threshold in case there was development happening, etc. So long story, and it was so that was just a really great experience. But one afternoon, one of my supervisors said, hey, you've been at that computer terminal doing that RQ GIS stuff for weeks now, you know, I thought I'd get you out in the field and really see the real world about this, right? I'm like, OK, sounds good. So here I am in my penny loafers at the time, my black or blue socks and, you know, whatever trousers I wore that day. And I didn't think much of it, right? I'm like, I'm going in the field, you know, but of course it had rained, of course, we're going to a wetland and of course, it's, you know, out there in terms of it's being in a rural area. And I thought, you know, yeah, we're gonna drive up and just see it and, you know, no, we're walking right through the muck right in the deep of these hot, you know, cattails, and, you know, and he's like, Well, you don't have any boots. I'm like, was I supposed to have boots today? I have no idea, you know. It was the first time outside. Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. So, um, you know, I laugh about it now because I look back, but it taught me a couple of things. One was when I was in the field, I love being in the field and I love being immersive with nature and conservation. But I quickly learned too that my value was not necessarily in the field, but in doing other aspects of the environmental career journey and being able to connect the dots between those field technicians and analysts that are doing that great, but also difficult work through all kinds of different conditions, as you guys know, was a skill set in terms of, you know, kind of translating the science into the communication and being able to offer that perspective was the path that I chose to go down. So instead of just being somebody who was in the field all the time, it was a demarcation zone for me to say, you know what, I like my clean penny loafers. It is who I am. I'm going to accept the mission. 

And even though people may say, what, I'm, I'm, I'm going with it, um, it just was my personality at the time and fast forward to today. It's, yeah, I think that was a demarcation zone in the journey, if you will. Oh, that's great. What a great story. Yeah, I think, I think one of those tiny loafers might still be stuck in I'm not sure I came home with those shoes, you know, you definitely threw them away. Yeah, yeah, they were gone. They were gone. Oh man, that's great. Um, I hate to say that we're running out of time, but before we let you go, is there anything else you'd like to talk about? Oh gosh, you know, I would love to talk about anything, but listen, I, I want to thank you both. I think we've had a terrific conversation. The thing that I always like to have folks walk away with is that let's view the world with a great sense of purpose, hope, and optimism. I think there's so much bombarding us today right now that tells us everything differently. I think we had so many uh thematic areas of discussion here this afternoon, but it comes back to us, you know, I, I think we can. Always have the autonomy to make the world a better place. I am an eternal optimist in that way. I hope people have the opportunity to check out Planet Pragmatism if you're interested in the, in the topic here. But even if not, I just wish everyone the best and uh just go forward and live your best life and pursue your prosperity. acknowledge or let it be known that there are people out there like us that are rooting for you and want to work with you and do amazing things and want to see you shining and all that you have and the gifts that you want to bring to the world. So, yeah, never feel alone. There's just people out there who are, who want to be with you and, and see that better place too. Very cool. That's perfect. So, where can people get in touch with you? You can find me in a couple of ways. You can find me at Mark Coleman insights.com. That is a website that you can get to my books and learn and discover more about my writing and some of the work that I do. You can also find me on LinkedIn if you just do Mark Coleman TRC or sustainability or Mark Coleman now that usually gets you to my uh LinkedIn page as well. Very great. Really enjoyed it, Mark. Thank you for the time. Thank you, Nic. Thank you, Laura, it was a pleasure. That's our show. Thank you, Mark, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. See you, everybody. Bye.