EPR Live from Raleigh with Cinder Miller and Andrew Goldberg

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, Nik talks LIVE with Cinder Miller, President of Gray and Pape, Andrew Goldberg, Principal at Agora at American Cultural Resources Association (ACRA)’s 31st Annual Conference about the future of environmental policy and protecting cultural resources.   Read their full bios below.

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Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

This is Nick talking. Nick is talking. Cinder, can you go for me? This is Cinder talking. Can you hear me talking? I can. That's perfect. Thank you, Andrew. Hi, hello there. This is Andrew. Can you hear me? Yeah, a little closer to your face, Andrew. How's this? Is this? That is perfect. OK. 

Here's one of the audience mics testing one. Second audience mic. We're gonna go over microphone etiquette when we start. Exactly my point. You'll notice that this is uh Wait, what did you say? Exactly. Oh my God, microphone. Oh, is there, is there a bottle of water somewhere I could grab, or do you, yeah, I'll bring you 10, thank you. 32. Magic time. OK, good. Yeah. Nick Yes. OK, so Thank you. Look OK, Senra, get off the phone. Lovely thank you. All right, are all, all our mics on now? Right. So we're ready to start. So yeah, turn, turn, turn them on. Just put on ready, forward. Yeah, that one's. OK. Hello and welcome to EPR Live. Uh, yeah. We're gonna go ahead and get started. This is gonna be pretty fun. Uh, are you, how's the conference been going so far? Awesome, yeah. 4 people are super excited about it. That's good. That's good. Uh, yeah, so this is actually, uh, my first time here, um, and it's been really fun to be part of this experience. And what we're gonna do today is just talk to you guys. Uh, we're gonna have mics, uh, we're gonna have, we're gonna talk, we're gonna ask you to ask us questions, and, uh, when you do have the microphone, notice right here you can hear me. But right here you can't. Here you can hear me. you can't. So just make sure you have the mic in front of your face. Uh, if you do it up here, it doesn't work. If you do it down here, it doesn't work. So that's, that's kind of the idea, OK? Um, we may ask you to repeat a question, that's OK. That's OK. We just wanna make sure we get it. This is all being recorded, so we are gonna put this online a few weeks later. You get the benefit of seeing it right now. Everyone else will listen to it in about 2 weeks. So cool. Before we get started, I do want to introduce who's up here with me. 

First, I have Sandra Miller, the president of Gray and Pope. Many of you may know her. I also have Andrew Gold Goldberg, the prep principal at Agora, and many of you may know him. I am Nick Frederick. I am the co-host of EPR. I also, uh, work for a company called Dawson, which is a native Hawaiian AA firm, shameless plug. We are a permanent AA and just saying that out loud, so everyone, OK, good. Um. So I did my due diligence. I also am the vice president of NAEP, which is the National Association of Environmental Professionals, and where they're the ones that help us do this podcast. So, you guys ready for us to get started? All right. OK, so, uh, my first question, I love asking how people got to where they got to. So Cinder, I'm gonna start with you. How did you get to be the president? Where did you start? How'd you get there? So, uh, when I was a kid, uh, I always wanted to be an international tax lawyer. That was my hope and dream when I went to college and I got to college and I was an economics major and, you know, pursuing that degree and, uh, at the end of my freshman year, my, uh, across the hall, uh, uh, colleague, um, said, Cinder, you have to fill this art history requirement, you know, to graduate and I'm like, oh really? I gotta take an art history class. And uh she said take this class, and she signed me up for a class that fit a specific time slot. That was the whole reason I took that class, and it turned out to be the game changer in my career. I fell in love with art history. I was uh undergraduate at New York University, which is a fabulous place to study art and art history. And the very last class that I took in the sequence of to fulfill what then became my double major in art. History and economics, um, was ancient art and it was a class about, uh, art in the basically Greek and Roman art and uh that I that I graduated from NYU, great. 

I didn't have a job and that professor, uh, said, hey, I have this person who needs an intern. She's a 85 year old archaeologist in Princeton, New Jersey, who works at the Institute for Advanced Study and she needs somebody to help her publish some stuff. So here I am, this clueless. Undergraduate with exactly one class in archaeology uh at the Institute for Advanced Study, which if you don't know what that is, it's the place where like Albert Einstein and all the nuclear physicists when it's a giant think tank of actual geniuses, um, and there I was like, uh, just learning some archaeology. She encouraged me to go to graduate school. In fact, I think her words were, I think you're minimally competent to get a graduate degree in archaeology. And so I wrote me a letter and I ended up at Bryn Mawr College, uh, which I, I've, you know, did a, a seven-year PhD program there and graduate with a PhD in classical and Near Eastern archaeology and was totally thinking I'm gonna be an academic and teach for the rest of my life, and that's the, the plan. And, uh, there were no jobs, um, just flat out there were no academic teaching jobs, so. I had a friend who was, uh, also an archaeologist who had graduated from Brent Mor. His name is John Birkin. 

He works for ERM now. He's not here today, so I can talk bad about him. But the, uh, so I sent him a postcard because right, this is when you send people postcards and stuff and um. He said, send her, uh, I said, I'm looking for a job. What do you say? Uh, he said, Hey, he called me up on my telephone, which, you know, was attached to the wall at that point in time, and he said, Hey, why don't you come to New Orleans and work, uh, do CRM with me? And I'm like, what is actually CRM? And he was like, it's Cultural Resource Management. And I'm like, all right. And I'm like, I don't really want to do that. I don't know anything about North America. He's like, how about this? Just come to New Orleans for the weekend, we'll hang out, we'll eat some good food, and maybe, maybe you'll meet my boss and it could all work out. And, you know, from there I, I showed up, uh, and it worked out and it turns out that like, it's, that was like, I don't know, 2030 years ago now at this point and The thing that was really interesting to me and my the what happened next was when I kind of progressed up the chain through that organization and then ultimately came up to Ohio to be at at Graham Pepe, um, but I think the, the, the coolest part of my career for me is that because I'm not trained as a North American archaeologist, I've always counted on having other people around me who are super good in the technical work. The culture history and all that, um, and the, the, the things that I've, that I've always brought to grade are uh great understanding of the regulations, always being willing to learn that, super focused on the business side of what we do. I'm great with all the the money and project management stuff, and I just love being surrounded by people who are smarter than me most of the time. So there you go. Like someone that knows that if you go to New Orleans, you aren't is that? You know, it's like it was kind of, it was a fun weekend in New Orleans. I'm so surprised. Wow, I can't believe it. Uh, all right, Andrew, uh, you gotta beat that somehow.

 I don't know, yeah, well, so it's, it's fascinating is that growing up I did not want to be an international tax attorney. Um, I, I'm trying to picture Young Cinder with her little Fisher Price tax attorney, I guess the laws of France or something. No, I actually. I wanted to be an architect, uh, growing up, um, for actually most of my childhood and went to school actually to study architecture but kind of found out fairly quickly that it was probably not for me, uh, my sophomore year, uh, I went to Penn in Philadelphia. Uh, my, my sophomore year had our intro to theory of architecture and the assignment on the very first day it said literally this is what it said it said form, mass and light, um, shapes that was it. There were no verbs, um. And you could tell like half the class were looking at it saying oh interesting yeah I see how it's I was doing it and I was the other half saying what the hell is this? How do you do this? And and it became quickly apparent. Or rather, should have been that I was not cut out to be an architect. uh, I didn't actually catch up to this for a few years, uh, when I graduated in a recession, couldn't get work, got involved in in politics. Uh, however, the architect, I guess in me, I guess you could take me out of architecture, you couldn't take the architect out of me or something, but ended up working on Capitol Hill, uh, for a time in policy and it kept gravitating towards issues that were related to architecture, you know, transportation, urban policy, urban planning, uh, start preservation and. Environment those were the issues that really got me uh interested and excited and and after working on the hill for a number of years and some other jobs ended up going to work for the American Institute of Architects, uh, or AIA and running their government relations, which was great because I got to kind of play sort of like an architect architectish I guess, uh, but working in policy and helping to enact legislation, uh, that really touched upon all aspects of the built environment including, uh, preservation. 

Um, left there in 2018, hung out a shingle, uh, as, as a consultant, um, and then two years later, 2020, that awesome, wonderful year, um, uh, began working with, with, with Accra, which has been, uh, you know, a, a great fantastic experience. This year has been maybe a little less fantastic. Uh, but still, it, it's it's been a really great experience and so being able to take some of that background in the built environment, uh, but apply it towards policy has been, you know, really, uh, enriching and, and, and gratifying. And it's one of the things I love about doing this show is, uh, those are two very different stories and we're all on the same stage, right? Um, and I, I wanna ask next about like your day to day because that's also, uh, to me it's like when you're in school, like I went to school and I was like, I'm gonna study turtles. A lot, um. But that's not what happened, right? And like I think about my day to day and I'm like I just call people and talk to them, right, which is super fun for me and I had no idea I liked it that much, and but here we are, you know. So Andrew, what's your day to day like? What do you do? So I, I mean, every, every day is different, so I, I do, you know, government relations. I am a lobbyist. I, I, I, I feel like I should acknowledge that up front. Hope that doesn't offend anybody, um, uh, but in work with a number of clients, I mean, AA, as I tell all my clients, you are my favorite. You all are, but you really are. No, no, I mean we really are, of course I say it to everybody else. I say, yeah, you really are, but no, um, but really it every day is different because what, what the work that I do really, it's about sort of first of all tracking and understanding what is happening in government, which for me means uh the White House agencies, Congress, um, understanding what's happening, how it impacts, uh, my. 

Clients, for example, what's happening that really impacts AR, uh, helping working with ACRA and a really terrific government relations committee, uh, in understanding what our priorities are, what legislation or policies we want to see, uh, uh, you know, move forward, what, what policies may be coming up that we have concerns about and want to either stop or or fix and then getting on a call talking with. All of our allies and all the various, uh, you know, acronyms that we work with the National Trust, Nick Shippo, NAFO, SAA SHA, NASCAR, whatever. Get out the last one, but, and then, you know, and it's also engaging then going up to Capitol Hill, which sometimes is thanks to the magic of Zoom. It can be virtual but also means going up there physically, uh, and, and talking with, uh, Hill staff, talking with, uh, federal agency folks. So it's it's a lot of different activities. Some of it is sitting there. Reading regulations and being very, you know, really kind of like focused uh on that in a very quiet way. Sometimes it is really talking and engaging and and working with people, uh, who hopefully have similar ideas and trying to find common ground to move good policy forward. So every day is different, but it's, it's a lot of fun. Policies you're concerned about. I can't imagine there's any, um. This year is fine. Yeah, everything's fine. Everything's good, everything is good, yeah, so it's, um, yeah, there are, there, there are a couple here or there, uh, well, when actually tomorrow, uh, well, tomorrow for this group I guess in the past for those listening, depending upon what time is, yeah, we'll be talking in more detail about a number of the policies and we've heard some of that already executive orders, uh, that have been coming. 

Down staff changes, you know, different policies, funding, uh, challenges on the hill legislation like the one big beautiful, uh, bill, uh, Bill Act, the OBBBBB that, uh, passed, um, yeah, so I mean there are a number of, of different things and really for, for, for AR it's it's always about, uh, looking at, you know. What can we do to make sure that firms can do their best work? What can we do to help create an environment, uh, from a business standpoint, from a regulatory standpoint, from a preservation section 106 standpoint, and NEPA that enables firms to do what they do so well and how quickly we convey that to policymakers and get policies that actually move things in in the right direction? Yeah, which is great, and we will talk a little bit of policy here without spoiling too much, but, uh, send her on your day to day, um, how similar or different is it to Andrew's? Uh, well, I think Andrew probably doesn't supervise too many people. Are you, are you pretty much unsupervised and I am unsupervised, which is unfortable. Well, yeah, I'm, I'm not a bus. So, uh, you know, my day to day as president of Green Pape, uh, it consists of like usually piles of meetings, you know, one after the other after the other. I I, I directly supervise, I don't know, 6 or 7 people and in each of those people I have a check-in, uh, each week with, um, so it kind of depends. Then we have a big team, uh, like a team meeting, uh, for just the executive leadership once a week that I, I, I prep for that and put all that stuff together. Um, the other big parts of my day to day are, uh, talking to clients. People will call up, they'll have a project, you know, figure out how to put a proposal together, see if we need to team with somebody, then I might like pick up the phone and call somebody in this room and say, Hey, you want a team on this project? 

And you know, try and try and put together a coalition that could. Uh, help win those projects. Um, I do, uh, uh, less and less so it used to be that I would like, uh, win those projects and then I would be a fundamental part of the team that would execute the project. Now pretty much every time I'm part of the technical team I just kill the project because I just don't have time for it and the mental capacity and so. The, uh, it's a great day for me. I, I try and tell people at Gray and paper every day that my job, my goal every day is to do like less and less and less because it means that I'm pushing more and more work down the chain, which is the fundamental part of my job, um, you know, big part of my job as the president of the company is to be succession planning to make sure that there's another president that can come in and other, you know, bring the rest of the staff up. So the best parts of my job. mentoring. I mean, my favorite thing is when the young people on the staff come into my office and they're like, they just want to know what I'm doing. Like, what do you, what are you doing? Can you teach me something and whatever. I'll teach them some, show them what I'm doing or explain the Excel spreadsheet that I have or show them how we're workforce planning or, you know, any of that stuff. And that's what's super fun in my day. Yeah, and it's it's a great thing. It's it's such an interesting thing to the shift that happens when you go from being In charge of a project to in charge of the people in charge of the project. What was that transition like for you? it's so hard because you know you're trained as a technical person. I, I mean, I loved being the person out there doing the work. I mean, the thing that I've always been super specialized in. Or big huge giant energy projects they're like super type A, super stressful, like just go and like just motivate that team to go forward and, you know, feel successful at the end of the whole thing. 

And when you have to not, when you have to not do that and watch other people do it and Um, just the, the, it's hard because I was good at it. I was really good at that and you know, you're never really sure like, are you gonna be good at this other stuff? Like, I don't know, maybe not. I mean, maybe I'm like crappy at figuring out how to, uh, whatever but do a shareholders' meeting, you know, like who knew, who knew how to do a shareholders' meeting, you know, for me before a couple of years ago, like. You just, it, it, it's, it's tricky to let go of those things that you feel that that's where your comfort zone is. And so, you know, to me that again, every single day now is this little teeny tiny step out of my comfort zone so that I'll find a new zone. I mean, I'm, that's the one thing I feel confident about is like I can't find a new zone now and I don't, I don't worry about it quite as much. Yeah, and I, I love it too. It's never a direct immediate shift. Uh, it can't be, right? And I know sometimes like when I started doing that, I was so worried about, oh, I gotta make sure everything's going, and now I don't even like I don't even think about it. I'm like, oh, this person can do that project, that person can do that project, this is great. All right, what am I doing next, you know, and it's a fun shift. I'll tell you like the first time, you know, like I'll have clients who I've worked with for 15 to 20 years, you know, I try and I push them to somebody else down like down the chain a little bit. And they just keep calling me and calling me. Well, and then the first time they call somebody else like I've been trying to tell them to do for 20 years and like they actually do it and it's like heartbreaking. I thought we were friends. I was like what the hell. So I mean, but it's good. 

Yeah, yeah, no, I know, and honestly like it's such a fun part of like the experience, right? We talked a lot about policy, we're gonna do that in like 2 seconds, but it's really important. You know, like our day to day, sometimes I, I wish somebody told me that, you know, hey, this is gonna be hard for you. This transition is gonna be hard, but at the end of it, you'll be doing just fine. Um, so, so like I'm a NEA person, I'm a Nipah nerd, I've been doing that since the, well, I, I graduated and then. I went in and the economy was great. I came out and the economy was like what economy? Um, and so like, uh, I got a job doing policy. I had no idea what it was and it turned out to be this amazing wonderful experience and so now here I am, uh, and we've had a really interesting year, you know, um, in, in NEA and in 106, they're all, they're, they're similar and they're different, they're together and they're not, um, so one of the things that I wanna ask from like my perspective, you know, I see. Uh, you know, we have Chevron deference and, uh, seven county case, right? So we talked about that a little this morning, uh, but there's, uh, basically agencies can't tell other people what to do, but they can tell themselves what to do. And from a NEPA perspective, what that means is. Uh, we're probably gonna see agencies take a little a lot harder look at is this an EIS? Is it actually an environmental assessment? Is it actually a CADX? And so we're gonna see some shift down until legis, you know, litigation comes and maybe that'll shift back up. I don't know, but that's one of the things that I've, I am seeing. And so Andrew, uh, one of the questions I have for you is, um, does that translate to section 106? Is it different? Yes and no. 

And, and, and I'll start by saying when you're lobbying the answer yes and no great works great for just about anything, um, because obviously you know NEPA and AHP are different statutes, and it's not simply that they're different statutes, even what they require as a process of course is very different, um, and that plays a big impact at the agency level, you know, one example is you saw this year earlier this year that the uh C Council on Environmental Quality. Rescinded their NEPA regulations and kind of left it to the agencies to do so and that happened in in in part in part because of of of Chevron probably gave some permission to do that but also because of another court case that pointed out that NEPA, the law, the statute from Congress never authorized CEQ to issue regulations. It simply said you work with agencies, provide guidance, but it shouldn't happen. However, back in the 70s, the Nixon administration, Carter. Began the process of developing CEQ NEPA regulations and so they could go away. The difference with an HPA and Section 106 is that the law Congress when they passed that in '66, uh, they said ACHP can write and should write regulations, so those regulations do have. Uh, they have kind of the authority, the backing of Congress. Now, having said that, what those regulations say, uh, of course, is up for debate, and you heard this morning or this afternoon, uh, you know, there are questions about will ACHP kind of change the 106 regulations, and we don't know that, um. And so in some ways what what's happening with NEA is different. 

That's kind of the no part. The yes part, of course, is we know practically functionally there's a lot of overlap and a lot of, you know, a lot of work that happens, you know, on the ground, uh, which all of you can talk to a lot more about. More than I can about how they interact and to the extent that you're seeing this push towards shorter time frames, uh, you know, more categorical, you know, exclusions, things like that, that invariably inevitably is gonna have some impacts on how 106 is. You know how agencies address that or approach 106 practically and so what we're trying to do and where we need help from really everybody who's doing this is understanding what those impacts will actually be. It's one thing to change the regulations or the practice, but then as that filters down into what agencies do or feel they can or can't do and what really happens when the rubber hits the road. 

Can be very different and so understanding these very rapid changes that have happened over the last 689 months feels like decades, um, you know, we're still trying to understand kind of what those impacts are, but you know the important thing to remember and as we remind people, you know, NHPA is still there 106 is still there, 800 is still there agencies have an obligation. A statutory obligation to follow Section 106. That is not changing. That has not changed unless Congress changes that, which we don't expect to do it to do. That is the case. You still have to follow that, but how that works in practice, yeah, they, they, they're definitely we could definitely see some changes. Yeah, and it's, it's interesting from like the NIRS perspective as well. It's, it's such an interesting thing to me. Uh, because we have, uh, clients coming to me and saying, well, we don't have to do this the same way anymore, uh, so, you know, we can do an EA in like 30 days or an EIS in 30 days. We don't have to do the way we used to do it. I'm like, we just ask GBT to do it, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, and then, you know, there's nothing wrong with it and everything's great. Um, and so it's like when I explained to clients like, well, you, the the law is still there. Right, like you still have to comply with that. You still have to have reviews for, you know, you know, Fish and Wildlife Service in section 106, and, you know, you still have to do all of these things. So your timeline that that we're trying to narrow, which isn't even honestly a bad endeavor to do, like, can we do this more efficiently? We should, uh, but the timeline isn't actually getting narrowed as much as people would like. So, um, you know, what do you see, and this is really for both of you, but, uh, Andrew, I'll start with you like. Uh, what when clients come to you and, and they say like, what are you hearing that they, that you need to kind of go, well, well, actually, well this is what's actually happening. 

So what are your clients maybe not understanding about what's going on right now? I, mean, I think you know one of the big things is, and I'll use an example because, you know, like I said, as you said, you know, we've seen with some legislation that passed Congress a few years ago and other things, you know, the timelines for EA. EIS is shrinking that doesn't impact you know NHPA, but what we have seen as, as, as folks are well aware, uh, there is this executive order, this energy emergency executive order that was promulgated, I think, on January 20th, 1 of the first ones, um, and which was followed by, you know, guidance from ACHP that basically uses the emergency procedures under. Section 106, the 800, is it 16 or 12, uh, this is the one place I think in the world where I can actually ask people which part of the CFR is that covered if you're like, oh, that's uh 16.47 subpart A, um, yes, I'm saying you're all are dorks, but that's OK. We love that, um, but right, but, but, but what's happened is that we're seeing agencies we're giving the being given the authority or even the, the requirement to use those emergency procedures on. Projects and so we've just been hearing kind of piecemeal uh but more and more about certain agencies that are using the emergency provisions which in some cases means 7 days uh to do 106 and so you know 28 days for, uh, you know, an EIS is crazy. 7 days is also crazy and yes we should do it, be able to do it faster we can do it faster with the right support, but it should be about also what fulfills the intent of the law. 

Doing it well is also important. Uh, so Cinder, for you, like you have different clients, different people coming to you. What are you hearing from them? So the, we've had a bunch of our, uh, larger energy projects, uh. That in theory could be, uh, they could be part of this energy emergency and many of the larger clients don't really want to go that route because they're really terrified of litigation on the back end of their projects, right? So they're like, well, this energy emergency thing is kind of OK now, but who knows when this giant massive project gets down the pike ready for construction. it's just gonna be like one more place where somebody can sue us. So the, I think a lot of them are hesitant to kind of go that path. Um, uh, from the perspective of Graham Pape, we have seen clients, uh, basically say, OK, we're gonna use the energy emergency and just mean that that means we're going to, uh, tell everybody that they actually have to. Follow the actual rules of section 106, so like whatever if the if the SHPO had been taking 60 days, you know, forever to reply 6090 days, they'll say, OK, now you actually have to do it in 30 days, you know, which is the law. So like that's it that I, I think there are also a lot of clients out there, um, and again, particularly in the energy industry who. Um, they have spent years building up environmental compliance programs and tribal consultation and cooperation programs that they're actually committed to, um, and that are now part of their values as companies and so they're, uh, committed to that work, you know, they wanna do those things and. Um, so the, who knows, like right now I kind of, uh, uh, we, we have not seen a huge push, um, you know, to use the, the energy emergency declaration, um, on large projects, but I also think that uh the, who knows what's coming down the pike there. You know, as Jamie just said, they've had 500 or some odd projects where they've seen that, uh, where, you know, where they've seen that where, where, where people where the where it has been used. So maybe it'll start to come to the larger projects. All I can say is we, we haven't seen it yet. I'll be curious to hear what the rest of you say when it's when it's time for broader Q&A. But yeah, and I think that's uh it's an important point to make, you know, most agencies. are well aware of the fact that there are different administrations, uh, that they all come and go. Um, one of my favorite things that, uh, you know, you look back over history and you see. 

Uh, you know, the Reagan in the 80s, um, and Nixon in the 70s, uh, there's different eras where things are different and they seem like they're going on a specific path and there is no other path, and it will always be this way and then it shifts, right? And so we're kind of at the beginning of a new path right now. And I think even back the, you know, past couple of administrations, we're kind of, you know, yo yoing back and forth and we're just kind of along for the ride, which is kind of wild. And that's not really a question. I just wanted to say that, so. Well, I mean, look, I mean in some ways and again I'm looking at it from the standpoint of politics and everything else you've had over the last few years a new president every four years. I mean in 2016, 2020, 2024, and yes, in 2028 you're gonna have, you know, different presidents, um, and also what what's happening, it feels like more and more is there used to be a sort of a some sort of bipartisan consensus that different administration would come in of a different party and they would move in a new direction but they would generally sort of. You shift things gradually or slowly and what you're seeing more and more is this trend is happening on both parties. Uh, the new president comes in and they kind of want to erase everything their predecessor did and then somebody else comes in, they wanna erase that and so you're having this kind of yo yo effect. I mean, just looking at NEA for example, where you've had, you know, big changes proposed in 2020. They were rescinded and then come back and that does create for you for anybody but certainly from a business standpoint or a planning s. I think the one thing that most businesses hate is uncertainty and unpredictability and that's what's what's happening is there's more and more of that which, which really is a bigger, deeper problem that we have to face, but it means more transitions, as you said. 

Yeah, and it also means uh knowing what's going on is extremely valuable, right? So which was good for business for me personally, right, but, but that's not the goal. The goal is we want to have more certainty. And so like, uh, you know, before we get to questions too, there's a couple of other things we like to do on the show. One of them is uh is field stories and I love hearing, uh, how people do their jobs and, and, and nobody cares about you going well, um, I wanna know about the tough days, right? Like a, a crazy project, a crazy thing that happened to you, um, and I'll give you guys an example of something that I know of that's in the in the section 106 realm, and I'll just, I'll just say a few things, um, and see what you think. Um, a community wants to build a pool. Um, they hire a paleontologist to do the, uh, archaeological survey. Yeah, right. Uh, it gets approved. Uh, the paleontologist says, hey, there's a building down here that's, that's probably historic, but don't worry about it, it's nothing. Right? Yeah, there we go. Then, um, when the 21st body was exhumed, someone said, oh, maybe this isn't really where we should build this pool. Yeah, well they did 2020 times they were like, yeah, 20 bodies but wasn't this a movie? Yeah, yeah, uh, and it turned out that that that building that wasn't properly assessed was a burial ceremony site and if someone had had the experience they would have said, yeah, this whole field is probably full of bodies don't touch it. So that's what I mean when I say that's, that's an epic story. I don't know if you have something like that, something different, but what do you have for me? I, I, I guess one, and I guess it does have, I guess it does end well or better, but so when I worked on Capitol Hill, and this was back in the 1990s, um, I worked with my member of Congress. I worked with on doing an amendment to a bill which was she was gonna present and she did present on the House floor, um, and we thought it was all pretty innocuous. 

And then uh the Speaker of the House at that time was a gentleman by the name of Newt Gingrich, I got up there and said this was a uh a bizarrely drafted a terrible amendment. This would be, you know, destroy the country or anything, um, which is OK, that's what he does, but then he's a Republican, a Democratic, uh, committee chairman got up and said basically the same thing that this was a terrible idea, this was atrocious, this should be defeated and. And I'm sitting, you know, in back in the office and thinking, you know, my boss is on the floor of the house with all these members they are being told that her amendment, which I helped to draft was, you know, the worst thing in the world and that that's a, you know, you know, to fail in private is one. Thing to fail on C-SPAN, uh, it is a lot different. Well, anyway, so, so I'm, I'm, I'm already thinking about I should pack up my desk. I my resume, maybe, I don't know maybe McDonald's is hiring, uh, when they get to a vote and the amendment actually passed 400 to 30. Because it frankly it was kind of a dumb idea, but politically it sounded really good and so everybody voted for it and so you know I think that was I, I, I mean it, it one of the lessons it taught me is um you know I guess you really can never predict how things are gonna play out, um, you know, also maybe put more time in trying to assess. where people are on, on an amendment if you bring that up, but I don't know if that really counts as a field being the hill I guess so, so politicians said something and then something else is what you're telling me. Yeah, I know that sounds crazy. I've never heard of that. I don't know what do you got for me? 

You know, I don't have a story like that, but I could just tell everybody the story of my very first CRM, um. So, you know, as I described to all of you earlier, I have a PhD in classical and Near Eastern archaeology and so I was put in the field, uh, Goodwin and Associates. I was running a project, um, it's called Red River Pool 5, and I was up in Shreveport. Uh, Louisiana, um, and so this job had been described to me as CRM is about like you go and you do this archaeology before somebody builds something to make sure, you know, you're gonna find all this stuff. OK, great. So that's the big concept out there. So they had already built all of the locks and dams and the whole levee system. It's already there. So we're doing this archaeology after the fact, right, whatever. I, I guess that's fine. So, you know, I go out with my field crew. It's the first day we're there and it's August in Shreveport, Louisiana, um, it's a billion degrees and. We're standing on top of this levee and we're supposed to go down to the batcher and survey this big cotton field. Well, I'd never surveyed in a cotton field, but I'm standing up there and we're looking down and there's red river over here and there's all this cotton there and these cotton plants are is sort of moving around, but, um, there's no wind. 

And I, I look at my crew chief and I'm like, why are all those plants moving? And they're like, Senator, that field is full of cotton mouths and I'm like, Are you kidding me? And so I'm like fantastic. So I was terrified of that. And as we're standing there, um, about to go into this cotton field, this plane comes over the top of us and they crop dusted us. Because the corps of engineers who own this project had not told them that we were gonna be out there and they didn't want us there. And so I said to my crew chief, and again this before any of us can have any cell phones, I said, can we go home now? Like, can we leave? And she's like, yeah, probably we should take a shower and I'm like, that's a good idea. So but you know, we leave and my boss says, OK, we'll go and do like this historic like you need there's this plantation house across the river, go and interview the family that's there. And I'm like, should I call them first and like I just go. So I go and I'm like, OK. So I knock on this door and it's this big beautiful house, plantation style house right there in Bossier City. And I'm like, you know, uh, uh, I can't remember the guy's name. It was like, well, I'm gonna just say, is James Boudreau here? And so the guy, you know, that I said, well, do you want Big Jimmy, Little Jimmy, or itty bitty Jimmy? I'm like, sure, I'll take any one of them to talk about this, you know, this, this house and just, I just need some history about this place and um, he says, well, uh, why, what are you here for? And I'm like, well, we're the corps of engineers and he was like, are you some lawyer from New York City come to take my land? And anyway, it. It was the, this is literally my first day on the job. 

Like all of those things happen and I'm like, what on earth am I doing here? Like how, how did this happen to me? So, yeah, yeah. And then here you are, here I am. I am 30 years later. You know, if you'd followed your career path and you could have been a lawyer for a lawyer from New York City. That was the plan, right? So, so when you said yes it's a joke and then you were promptly killed, um. No, that's great, but like that's the whole point. Like we all have those stories. That's like one of my favorite things is like, you know, we all have them. It's just that, that we've got guns around here and you're like, yeah, I can see that, you know, I'll leave, it's fine. Um, but yeah, I, we wanna, open it up to you as well. We, we, we want you to have, uh, ask us a few questions, we'll answer as best we can, we'll try to laugh a little bit as we do. Um, and then, uh, yeah, I'll close out with uh one or two questions for the both of you that we love to ask at the end of the show. So we'll turn it over to the audience. Real quick note, just remember we are recording. Don't start your question until you have the microphone. It is a safe space if anybody does not want to be on the recording, but you want your question asked, jot it down, Bonnie, or I will read it for you and that's OK. We want the questions to come out. We don't want to worry about that part of it. Yeah. We got one? 

Guys are slow. Yeah, the suspense is killing me. Let's go, yeah, yeah. Hi, um, so my name is Samantha Fulham. I'm with Plato CRM. My question is for Cinder. So I listened to you speak about kind of your day to day and got a look from my friend and I was like, yeah, that sounds exactly like my life. So as one young woman in archaeology who's making the difficult transition out of being. In the field type A controlling everything and learning to let go, um, do you have any advice for women who are looking to transition into upper management roles from field positions in an industry that has been predominantly male driven in that field? So look around this room and find friends and mentors, um, the, the, the, the best. Uh, advice that I've had in my career has come from the women of Accra, uh, almost without doubt. They are, uh, it, it'll make me teary eye if I talk about it too much, but they're my friends, they're my mentors, they're the people I count on to talk to about all of the, all of the issues and transitions, um, and, and honestly, it's personal. Like sometimes it's like, wow, this is just. crazy and it's affecting my personal life, but, um, you're, it's a very special group of people. Uh, the other uh the other, I'll do a little teeny tiny little plug. I don't know if you're familiar with the women of, uh, we have a women and women leaders and CRM group um that meets once a month, um, it's like Friday at like lunchtime for those of us in the Eastern time zone and it's Kind of an amazing group, you know, sometimes we talk about like real business stuff, but sometimes it's like group therapy, and it's fine. And if you can stay, stay. 

If you can't stay, you don't stay, whatever it is. Um, the other thing I would say is find real, uh, mentors that are near you if you can. Um, I, when I became president of Gray and Pape, uh, one of the best investments that I talked my partners into is I participate in it. It's called Visage. It's an Executive peer mentor group, um, and, uh, so once a month I go to these sessions and hang out with other presidents of other companies and it is amazing to get input from other from other people in the business in the business universe that they there are many, many, many like of those uh like types of of mentor groups it's, it is expensive um it. Expensive to invest in learning how to be a leader, um, and like I I'm happy to help talk any of your bosses into why they should invest in that leadership training for you. I'm super passionate about what it can do, um, for what it can do for you because it, it's, it's you, you can't just talk to the people that are around you all the time. You have to get perspective. from other people. The other thing I'll say is just believe in yourself. I mean, you know, as a woman in this industry, you will often be, uh, here, here at Accra, you're surrounded by lots of other women, but in that universe of clients, you'll often, I mean, down in Louisiana, I was the my biggest client was Texaco. I can't tell you the number of times I sat around at some wicked fancy restaurant in. You know, in New Orleans and like, honestly, again, for those of you that read Cinder's Corner, you may know that I'm an avid sports fan. I learned everything I could about SEC football. There you go boom, I was in, you know, and you just find and now. Now some of those guys who like I never would have talked to them before, hell, 30 years later I exchanged Christmas cards with people that I never thought I had a connection with. So believe in yourself, find some mentors and um get some leadership training. Uh, incredible answer. That's perfect. Yeah. What else we got? Yeah, and we can sit, we can sit. It's fun. I wanna hear from you. Hey, uh, I have a question for you, Cinder, um, about the energy emergency. 

Um, I was just kind of shocked to hear you say that, uh, you haven't been getting that many people following that, um, from your clients at least. Um, I work in Georgia and they routed to transmission lines, I think in the last 5 years and over the next year, there's like 29 planned. So we've been doing tons of overtime and everything since the energy emergency started, so I was just wondering if maybe that's a geographical difference or a client difference, um, but we've been doing tons of emergency transmission line surveys. It's really like dominating my life, I guess. Uh, we've been doing a lot of field work. So what I was saying was we don't have a lot of clients who are who are, uh, wanting to have their projects declared energy emergencies. So what you're saying is that, yeah, so the yes to what you're saying. People are building there is now this whole push to build more infrastructure, so I'm not, I'm not at all surprised to hear that. Are the, are the transmission lines that you're working on has somebody are they, are they under the emergency declaration or are they lines or I mean. Um, yes, it's all under the RUS umbrella and basically we've had our time to do surveys cut in half, and I think that I'm not super familiar with all the new regulations, but I would imagine that it has to do with the reduction to the seven day review period or something along those lines, um. But yeah, they'll give us a date, you know, we need to get this done by December 31st and last year we would have had an extra year, but that's not the case. 

Well, I'm glad to hear that they're still doing the surveys and that you guys are hopefully, uh, you know, well, here's what I would say as a consultant, hopefully you're making bank on that right now. Somebody's asking you to, to really accelerate your schedules on it. Um, and this is the kind of stuff that I love to hear at Acro like because I, I have my experience, you know, Gray Pape is a good sized company, but our experiences are not necessarily what everybody's are, so thanks for sharing that. Yeah, and to that point I'd say, you know, one of the challenges with a lot of this is we're not always getting that information from the agencies of what's happening. It's, it's coming in very piecemeal and so when one of the benefits of an association like this is all of you are kind of are, are on the ground eyes and ears and so the more we hear about it from you. The more it helps us understand what's happening and can respond to it and and react to it. So I think and this goes for us goes for NA NAAP and everything else and the more we can hear about what you're seeing, hearing happening on the ground. That that that helps us a lot and so I think that's really important where we really have to kind of work together um in order to kind of really have an impact and try to address some of these rapid changes. Yeah, and I'll, I'll close out by saying, you know, even within an agency you can have different entities working different ways. Uh, Homeland Security is a great example. 

FEMA and CBP are working differently. Uh, and what they're doing now is different. Are you suggesting that some agencies don't always know what other people in the agency are doing? I would never. Yes and no. That's what I should have said. That's the takeaway. Hi, so I'm Kim Smith with HDR, um, using the energy emergency. I was curious if you, Cinder, I guess, um, and Nick have been seeing more, so energy clients, what we've had in the past was they would look at a high level critical analysis. They would do a due diligence and a lot of times they would still wanna go through uh a fuller. Phase one survey if necessary we're seeing now there's a little bit more constraints as they are looking more particularly to jurisdictional areas and curious if everyone else is seeing that trying to rein in their level of involvement but one that would check that box for less litigation on the back end. Uh, I can see that I haven't seen that, uh, at Gray and Pay, but again, my experience is limited. I'm super curious what other, what, what other people in the, in the room. I'm seeing people kind of shaking their heads saying they haven't seen that much. I mean, the rest of you out there, I'm, I'm looking for my, my people in the energy. Are you seeing that at all? No? I'll say from our stand in the Midwest, there is, there are so many more drivers at the state level. 

That the federal changes lately have not impacted how we go about our projects because there's we do a ton of uh work in Illinois for example and Illinois has their section of 7707 process that is a state level cultural resource rule and that won't change regardless of what the federal regulations do now. Down the road if something major changes, that could also change. So we're, we're seeing that as the driver and we're. Currently, fingers crossed, less concerned because those projects really won't change for us. Yeah, and I'll add like no one wants to be first in any new endeavor, right? We all like that's really great for them to do that first. Like no one wants to be sued first and lose first. Uh, and so what I'm seeing from my in my group and what we're doing. It's a lot of like, are you gonna do it this way or am I gonna, you, you first, uh, and, and there is genuinely that, but there are things like ven County telling agencies you can tell yourself what to do, right? Because when, when, when, uh, Chevron deference came out and people were, uh, agencies didn't even know if they could, they could do that. And, you know, the Supreme Court's kind of saying to them, no, no, you can tell yourself what to do. You can do that. And you should. And if someone else has jurisdiction over what you're doing, don't worry about it. 

Um, how that plays out is still that very much everyone's in that kind of, um, are you sure? And that's where we are. I want like one more guy. There we go, good, yes. Uh, good afternoon and thank you for having this panel. Uh, Sean Stretton Tri Leaf Corporation. Um, I'm gonna basically ask a question I asked earlier to Jamie from the ACHP, so this will be mainly for Andrew, um, about the proposed rule changes at the FCC to make, uh, cell tower licensing not a federal action. Uh, what you've seen about that and, and, and your thoughts on that particular rule change if what effects it may or may not have. So yeah, so thanks for the question. So and so yeah, by way of background, the SEC has put out, and I, um, and I think Jamie put it kind of well, sort of a sort of a weird sort of it's like we're changing the rule and we're gonna change the rule, but we want to ask your opinion about whether we should, but we are, so, um, you know, good luck, um, you know, and it would you know and it does in many ways conflate kind of, you know, major actions under NEPA and undertakings under NHPA. A lot of this comes, well. Part of it comes from a petition from uh one of the uh telecommunications broadband associations back in the spring, uh, to really, you know, basically exempt uh towers, uh, from this and, and, and using, uh, using, um, some of the NEPA changes that happened in law a couple of years ago, seven counties, etc. um, as kind of the basis, and they said, well, and while you're in the neighborhood, maybe you can also change your regulations. 

On 106, um, and Acura, you know, and a lot of the groups file comment on that saying that's not how it works that, you know, you need to follow 106, um, so right now they do have this, uh, proposal out there which we're in the process of analyzing and certainly welcome folks' view, um, you know, the reality is, is that, you know, uh, the, the chairman of the FCC, uh, you know, Chairman Carr has a 2 to 1 majority. They do have a. And ability to kind of change uh those rules like we're seeing in other uh agencies and so um you know we we're gonna certainly it's important for us to kind of put our view out there and work as much as we can, uh, to get to a reasonable place but also it's we're also gonna remind them as we did earlier, uh, you know, there is a PA, uh, in effect it's been in effect for a while that was the product of, you know, a lot of time and negotiation, uh, that really addresses a lot of this and. Um, that's, and that's a big challenge I think with a lot of agencies is that, you know, they, they sometimes the, the attitude is, well, if we want to get around 106, we have to do all these things, you know, there is, there are program comments, there are programmatic agreements there the, the, the law and the regulations have a lot of kind of escape valves where you can find ways uh to make it. Work better that where you engage with all the interested parties and make sure that it does work and that that that can be a very good process and so we, we want to remind the FCC they have the ability to address this in a way that does not violate the spirit of 106 or even the actual law itself. How that turns out, you know, I'm not sure but again. 

Certainly anybody, anybody whose firms work on projects like this or understand the impact that this could have on locations, especially tribal, uh, you know, tribal lands, especially, uh, you know, you let us know that helps us make our, our case and then we're gonna make the best case we can with our partners, uh, and, and see kind of where things shake out, but, um, yeah, I think that's something that we, you know, we do expect to see those changes coming up for a vote in the commission at some point in the not too distant future. Yeah, and you gotta, you gotta love, uh, what do you think of this, even though we're changing it, we don't care. That's great. I mean, there have been a couple of those cases where agencies have said we're put up for comment, but we're gonna do it anyway, uh, which. Yeah, which happens to me a lot actually. I borrow money I already took from you. Yeah, there's, there's another joke in there too, I think. Um, we do have time for one more question if anyone else, I, wanna give everybody in in the audience time to ask whatever else you'd like. And if not I'm just going to talk like this for 2 more minutes. 

Here we go. Yeah, I'm, I'm Chris Espache with New South. I was wondering if there's any update on what's happening with the Corps of Engineers and Appendix C. I know one was undergoing review, but I kind of lost track of it, yeah, I think everybody kind of did, yeah, so back it towards the middle to end of the Biden administration, you know, the court did, uh, come up with, uh, you know, a proposal. They were gonna rescind Appendix C, replace it essentially with the 800 regs with some modifications, I think come January 20th, all that was kind of put on hold. We have not heard whether that's coming up again and at the at the same time, uh, as part of the. Broader effort government wide to, to, to change the NEPA regulations, you know, the core has come out with some interim rules that that change, uh, their NEPA process which ACRR commented on, um, you know, what happens with Appendix C honestly, yeah, we, we don't quite know yet, uh, if that happened. That's something that a lot of us worked in in ACRA worked very hard to do that. Uh, I don't think there were too many people who were. Like, yeah, let's keep appendix C. It's wonderful. Um, it would be definitely an append appendectomy would have been a good thing. Sorry, it's late in the afternoon. I make a bad joke, that was, that was appendicitis, uh, but so yeah, but so we're gonna continue to push them and engage with them to make sure that, you know, the, the process works. 

But yeah, yeah, it is kind of all that's kind of up in the air or on hold, uh, you know, now at least has been for the last few months. Thank you. Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, that's how you know we're at the end of the day. That is, that's a great, great, yeah, well done. Thank you. I'm here all week. I'll, um, so yes, uh, thank you everybody for doing this. Um, like one of the ways I love to close out the show now that you, the, that Andrew and Cinder have established themselves as titans, uh, they may seem unapproachable, right? And so, uh, to give you an insight into who they are as a person, I have to ask a personal question. So one of my things I love to do is say, What do you do for fun? And Sandra, I want to start with you. Uh, what do I do for fun? Well, so I have admitted previously that I am an avid sports junkie. Um, I will watch any sport on TV pretty much known to man. Uh, it's a little, my, I, I'm following the Vuelta, which if you don't know what that is, that's the, uh, basically a big long bike race in, uh, in Spain right now. Um, I enjoy, uh, uh, I just sent my last kid off to. College, so I used to enjoy watching, you know, a lot of high school soccer and football games, but I'm kind of looking forward to doing my own thing now for a little while. So, you know, relax, talk to my friends, just relax. All right, so if you had one sport that you watch and you had to get rid of all the other ones. Is it, is it obscure cycling or are we talking? Sadly, I'd probably the one I would probably pick is football. I love to watch football. That's all I can say what's your team? 

That's very important. It's so sad for me. The New York Giants. I mean they're so terrible. They're terrible. I mean, they're having a rebuilding. I'm totally on the. Borough bandwagon in Cincinnati. I'm all about the jungle and all that stuff now, but I mean, God, I miss my Giants. Yeah, that's funny. I'm unapologetically a Steelers fan, and I know I said I wasn't going to apologize for it, and I won't. Um, but Joe Burrow did an interview, and he was like, you know what's awesome dinosaurs, and I was like, dang it. So now I like him and that's unfortunate. Uh, so. I know, I mean, kind of, but he's, he is cool in like a dorky way. Anyway, Andrew, for you, yeah, I mean, I guess one thing I like to do for fun is read the CFR, um. I know, that's not true. Uh, that is not true. No, I, so actually I guess maybe because of my architecture background I do like kind of like model making things like that. I think I mentioned on an earlier podcast I, I a few years ago I made a scale model of falling water. um, right now on my kitchen table I'm building a model of the Empire State Building. 

Um, you may ask why am I doing that? That's a good question. I don't have an answer because it's there I guess, but I plan to have it like lit up and stuff at night and things like that, so it's uh. Uh, it's just kind of a good way, uh, to, you know, it's a good kind of therapy, therapeutic sort of thing for various reasons. The last 9 months I've had a need to, uh, you know, do some things, but it, it, it's fun, um, and yeah, I think it's just, it's kind of very relaxing and, and enjoyable, and I have no idea where I'm putting it. If anybody wants a scale model, Empire State. Building wants to pay the shipping, please, because I don't know where it's going, but it's uh that's part of the fun. I love that you called here dorks and now we know, he is also a dork. That is what we learned. So there you go. Now you have something to talk to them about uh at the end of the panel and here we are and we're ready to close it out. Thank you everybody for being here. All right, thank you for a great first day. Enjoy your evening, um, and we will be back here uh at the crack of 8:30 tomorrow. And as for people being dorks, this is the nerd prom.