Spark Birds, Lifer Pie, and Becoming the Mirror for Yourself with Alex Troutman

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Alex Troutman, Wildlife Biologist about Spark Birds, Lifer Pie, and Becoming the Mirror for Yourself.   Read his full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
1:17 - Learning from our Guests
8:40 - Interview with Alex Troutman Starts
15:51 - Favorite Roles 
26:40 - Being a role model 
41:53 - Field Notes with Alex!

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Alex Troutman at https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-troutman-aba24828b/ 

Guest  Bio:

Alex is a Fish and Wildlife Biologist and Environmental educator with a passion for sharing and immersing the younger generation into nature. He has a Bachelor of Biology and master’s degree with a focus in  Conservation Biology from Georgia Southern University.  Knowing how it feels to not see anybody who looks like you  in your dream career, Alex makes it a point to be that representation for the younger generation.  He is  the co-organizer for several Black in X weeks including Black Birders Week and Black Mammologists Week,  A movement encouraging diversity in nature, and the celebration of Black individuals  scientists, and increasing awareness of Black nature enthusiasts, and diversity in STEM fields.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, we talk about our favorite birds. We interview Alex Trotman about spark birds, lifers, lifer pi and becoming the mirror for yourself. And finally, Kingfishers. Like Alex said, kingfishers did inspire the Japanese bullet train, but there are some other fun facts about them. You can tell the males and females apart solely from their beaks. They are solitary birds and kingfishers. Chicks have fluorescent beak tips so their parents can find them in the dark. That sounds awesome. That was awesome. Did not know that? Fantastic. 

Hit that music. 

ACRA's 31st annual conference will be held in Raleigh, North Carolina from September 11th through the 14th at the Sheridan Raleigh Hotel. This year's conference theme is Policy and Protecting cultural Resources, and it is intended to explore how policy intersects with the protection of cultural resources. This includes federal policy, state policies, and the involvement of communities and other stakeholders. Register now at www.AA-CRM.org. 

Let's get to our segment. Well, the interview with Alex was freaking awesome. I'm super excited for people to listen to this one. Yeah me too. But when we were interviewed a few weeks ago by Kacie, Marley and Sam, one of the questions that they asked us was, what have we learned? Like, have there been any moments where like, oh, I didn't know that. And yes, it happens all the time, but like remembering it was hard. To pull them out, but it happens all the time. But today, since it's now in my mind, there were several things that were like, Ah, I didn't know that. That's awesome. But one of them was, he's a birder, so one of them was, what he has a spark bird. And I was like, What is that? I want one. Yeah, I've never heard the term before either. Right. And then there was the other one. Do you remember the other one? No Libird. It was like a life bird or something. Yeah. OK, yeah. 

So I want to know what is your spark bird in your lifebird, and then I guess I have to tell people what those are. Yeah, yeah, so spark bird is like a bird that got you into birding, right? And like I'm not necessarily a birder per se, but my favorite, one of my favorite birds, besides, he talked about kingfishers, and I love kingfishers lots of ways. They're great, but really the first time I saw a bird and I was like, that is an awesome. It's just an awesome bird. It's a small, like a cedar wax wing for me, like they're just so gorgeous and these little birds and they're otherwise just living regular old bird lives, nothing unique about them other than the way they look, but it's just like they just look cool and like I like hearing the way they sound is really nice too. I love that we give a shout out to house sparrows in the episode because they really Yeah, or house finches, and whatever it is, I can't even remember. See, now I'm thrown off, but like, it's fun. Like birds are hard. It's hard for me to pick one that I like, but I think my favorite bird fact is like that all the eagle screeches you hear in the spark. Yeah, I do. I, I love that like all the eagle screeches you hear are actually red tail hawks. That tickles me to death. It's not eagles, Eagles like, like Kitter, like they have like a and like redtail hawks are like die like that's how like and so that's what you hear because it's much more impressive and its red tail hawks, not eagles. Interesting. Yeah, my spark bird is probably a weird one because growing up in Florida and not being like going outside, not being a nature person per se, Mockingbirds. Mockingbirds are the coolest little troublemakers, makers. They wake like in the morning, they are singing their little hearts out, like they're just interesting. 

Yeah, that's true. That's a good one. And they really are, they are coming after everybody. They, they are not scared, you know, they will be chasing crows and chasing eagles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, chirp chirp chirp chirp, yeah. Really. But what about a uh life bird? Life bird for me, like I'm gonna steal from him, like a penguin would be right up there and like, I know they don't smell great. I know it, but they look amazing. I think they're really, really unique birds, and that would mean that I'm in Antarctica, hopefully, which I would love to get to at some point before I die, and Yeah, are you following Erica Moulton or Tiffany DeWong right now? Oh, I know they're in Antarctica. Um, if you were following them, I would think I would know. You'd be so jealous. Oh no, I can't, but, uh, well, that's not true. I actually am following Tiffany, but I, it's hard. It has so many great things and I'm like, oh, this hurts. I mean, they were showing like the passage to Greenland and it's midnight, so it's midnight sun, total calm flat water and just amazing. So Arctic summer, like so cool. Like I finally got to see manta rays, you know, so I feel like I can start looking at JD's videos again, but like, yeah, yeah, that's tough for me. So I, what about you? What are your bird goals, your life bird, my life bird. No, you're spark bird, but what's your life bird? Yeah, my life bird, my next level bird is puffin because I've been, I've been to Iceland. Yes, I've been in the winter. I have not been in the summer and you would think that you, I don't know, in my brain anyway, you would think you'd see them in the winter for some reason, but they are there in the summer, so I need to go back to Iceland. Same as you. That would mean I'm in Iceland if I'm looking at a public. In summer, but then I think I want to see something more crazy. 

I see, I follow so many pages that show these like wild birds, and I don't even know that I know the names of them, but there, I think my life bird is waiting for me in Madagascar. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I think he actually called them lifers now that we're at the end of this. Yeah, I'm not sure, but life bird life, we have to keep listening and see what the so that we actually see this is our, this is how you know we're getting older. That's our brain's working, um. You guys missed it. Remember, a big part of the life, the life for bird was that afterwards, if you found your bird, you got to eat a pie of your choice. Yeah, I wanted to interject memories. Well, you just interjected. So yeah, second part of this conversation, like for the same. What would you eat after, after I see a puffin? What pie am I gonna eat? Oh yeah, you know, you go first this time. And we apologize to Sam for all the editing she's gonna do. I think that if I'm going to eat, I have to say the first thing that comes into my mind, which is going to be chocolate peanut butter or something. Oh wow, choco peanut butter something. I mean, I have some kind. I hear you. I, for me, like there's always. I know it's not the most wildest pie, but like pumpkin pie is always my favorite because it's like, uh, it's my birthday cake, cause like my birthday's late November, always near Thanksgiving, so like I would get pumpkin pie, not my birthday cake. And I always, I don't know, I still like that. It's still like, you know, you know, nostalgia. It's not. So even after you saw your life or bird, you'd still have your birthday cake. Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. There isn't one that's better that I like more than that. Honestly, I'm not a big pie person, if I'm honest. Honestly though, I have to look up like what are the pies in Iceland because I'll be in Iceland. Yeah, yeah. Well, like my grandfather made his own pies from scratch. Like that was like his thing, and he made an amazing apple pie. 

I mean like from his own apples, his own dough, and it was to die for, but it's like the way he made it is in my brain, it's perfect. So every other apple pie doesn't taste like it. So even though I'm sure there are others that are quote unquote better, they're not better than me, you know, I can't, I can't do it. So it has to be like pumpkin or something like that. Got it, that makes sense. I mean, it's like I try new food sometimes, or I try foods that I might have thought I enjoyed when I was younger and then I try them again. I'm like, this just doesn't taste the same. Right. Like Spaghetti O's is one, that's one I don't miss. Um, you eat that as an adult, you're like, man, my childhood. That's like slimy noodles in there. You're like, I could see how I liked it as a kid, but oh my God. He didn't know any better. It's OK. No, no, oh man, now that that's the way to end the segment, there we go. Right. On that note, take a listen to our interview. Yeah. 

Welcome back to EPR. Today we have Alex Trautman with us. Alex is a wildlife biologist, author, and environmental justice advocate. Welcome, Alex. It's great to have you on the show. Thank you. It's good to be here. Awesome. Well, today I'd like to start from the beginning, maybe not super beginning of birth and your birth and all that, but uh when did you start getting interested in nature and what sort of what things led you to your career in wildlife biology? Yeah, so I think I was kind of destined to be in nature. My last name is Troutman, um, so it was almost chosen for me, but really, um, I had always been in nature growing up. I was really interested into animals. I had every zoo book. Um, my neighbors would give me National Geographic. Um, I watched a lot of, um, conservationists, Jack Hanna, Seaber, and Jeff Corner and I knew I wanted to be a wildlife biologist or a conservationist, but I really didn't know if that was actually possible for me because there was nobody who looked like me or any representation doing that. So for the longest time I figured I would be a vet because it was either be a vet or be a farmer and those are only the representations of people of color working with animals, um, so I. So, OK, I'll, I'll be a vet and did all my schooling, still trying to figure out as much information as I could about wildlife and animals and um during that time, I was very active and outdoors with my family, my dad, uncle and brothers. 

We went fishing a lot and It was during a time where I also figured out I had a hobby that I didn't know was a hobby. I just thought I was outside looking at birds. Um, well, I have ADHD, so when I was fishing, but I was like looking at the birds I was fishing and one of them, the birds, um, the red tail hawk which would eventually become my sparkber. Um, I saw like flying over and like when it was flying over, it went in front of the sun and the tail looked like it was on fire, kind of like a phoenix. So like that really got me interested in like looking at birds. So I was looking at birds all the way up until college. And then I figure out when I took an ornithology course to study of birds that there's an actual thing called bird watching and birding, and I had been doing it all my life, but I didn't know it was an actual thing. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. What's a spark bird? I have not heard this term before. Yeah, so a spark bird is any bird that gets you into birding or bird watching. Uh, so for me it was a spark bird. For others, it's birds that like they have never seen before, like, in out west. Some in Oregon, they, they don't have northern cardinals, so that's some people spark bird or it can also be a lifer, uh, which is a bird that you really want to see, but sparkbird is the bird that got you interested in watching birds. Yeah. That's amazing. I think I hear a segment coming along around this topic. Yes, yes, spark birds and lifers. If you happen to find a lifer, a bird you really want to see, you get to eat what's known as lifeer pie, and it's any type of pie you want, you want to eat. Oh, I'm in love with this idea. OK, next segment. That's what we're talking about. That's amazing. Oh my gosh. OK, so. I want to stay on this topic for just a second. So birding, what is your favorite bird? Where have you been birding? What's your most exotic birding place? OK, so my favorite bird is a bird that I have not seen yet. 

It's a penguin, really any penguin. That the toboggans or sledding and I really like them because they're like dressing in tuxedo, um, and then they go down slide so I was like it'll be really cool to go like a fancy dinner party in tuxedo and then whip out a slipping side yeah so that's my favorite, yeah, right, exactly, yeah. So that's my favorite bird that other birds that I have actually seen. Some of my favorites are the roseated spoonbill. It's a beautiful pink bird from afar, but when you get up close to it, it has a wrinkly bald head, so it's not as cute. But the plumage or, or feathers are amazing. Um, so I, I really love that bird, but I have been in some really amazing places on birding. I've been in Australia, Costa Rica. I did some birding, um. Unintentionally when I was in Malaysia doing bat work, I got to do some burning there and I got to hear um a couple of like Rhinasas um hornbills like flying over and it sounded like helicopters. They were so loud. They're so loud, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Very cool. Well, tell us more about the work that you've done. So you've done both field biology and policy, so how do you kind of navigate both of those? Yeah, so all my work, uh, initially started out in field, um, the world of field biology field work. I worked with sea turtles, um bats, some butterflies. And I really enjoyed it. I wanted to like actually learn more about like how the policy is actually made instead of just blindly accepting the policy and implementing it. So I applied for the Cannas Marine Policy Fellowship and I got it and I spent a year doing Freshwater policy for the fish and aquatic conservation division of the Fish and Wildlife Service. So there I got to do a lot of policy with a lot of freshwater fish, so seminoid species, um, fish passage, as well as do some funding agreements for fish work. 

And then after that policy experience for a year, I got a job working with the National Park Service as an environmental protection specialist where I was looking at the National Environmental Policy Act, doing all work to help. To make sure that the actual policy um is being followed as the park is going through changes and working alongside the Department of Transportation to make sure that they're actually following um the NEA policy. Yeah, yeah, that's what I do. I love that. So like, you've had lots of different jobs, or I guess roles is maybe the better word. Do you have a favorite of those of the ones you're talking about? Like, was there like a time you're like, oh, if only I could stand in the, the muck for, you know, 8 hours a day, you know, or is it, do you like the policy stuff kind of more? Yeah, so I definitely like fill work a whole lot better, um, but the policy definitely give me an appreciation of where like it comes from and to be able to not only explain it better, but also be able to help make better decisions and tell other people about it because one thing that just be in the field, um, following the orders that you've been given that to actually understand like, OK, this is the reason why we're limiting this or the reason why we're allowing so much of this to be took or take so it gives me a better perspective like. You can sell cakes, but then to actually know how to actually bake the cake, buy the right ingredients, is uh gives you a more appreciation for the cake itself. Yeah, that's a great segue too because I was thinking about it, like you talk about yourself as an environmental educator, that's something that's very important to you. And you kind of set that up to be like you learned a lot about a lot of different things, not just what you like the most. So how do you use like what you learn to teach others?

Like, how do you get people who maybe don't have that experience or that background that you have to understand where you're coming from? Yeah, so. I would say it's everyone has something that they enjoy or that you can relate them to. It might be a weird relation like I love snakes, but you're afraid of snakes. Uh, we both can relate to snakes. Um, so it's using all those experience in a way that you can not only relate to someone but also you can show them why. you're passionate about it and why they may not care about it, but they should at least have some interest in it or be appreciative, uh, but like you still can be afraid and hate snakes, but you still can be appreciative that they help to control the rodent population, or for some of them, the venomous snakes like copperheads, they actually utilize the venom to Treat certain cancers like breast cancer or you may be afraid of bats that they provide a lot of economic value from controlling insect populations to if you like margaritas, tequila comes from me my bats. So there's always something you need to relate to. I just like learning and to be able to learn a lot of information and share to be. People, especially in a way that they can see like my passion shine through and it's be able for them to understand it and it's not me talking over them, but talking with them and give them more appreciation for the environment, or it's also being able to know that I'm able to teach the next generation uh appreciation. And maybe even give them a reason or a spark into nature, into science, and I really love like talking to the younger generation because they're like sponges and it's also kind of like a, a Trojan horse, so um they soak up all the information and then they go home and just like let all that information out so that is great. Yeah, so you can definitely like reach at least one other individual by talking to a kid. 

Um, so I love talking to the younger generation um for that. And it's like, you'd like to give back and I think it's a really great thing. I love to see that and um one of the ways you do that is you're creating the author of the Critter's Pocket Field Guide series. And so you've done it 13 states with more on the way. And I think this is a really cool thing. So some of our listeners may not be familiar with what it is. Can you, you walk through what that series is and what inspired you to pull it together? Yeah, so the Critters series, um, let's say fill guy that actually fits in your pocket, and I read in a way that it's accessible. I'm easy to understand for people who are new to nature and kids. Each field guide has 63 different species accounts. They are broken into birds, mammals, and reptile and amphibians, and each different species has a did you know fact about the animal that It's been covered. And again, like I said, this is really a way that everyone can understand it. Growing up, I really enjoyed looking at wildlife magazines and field guides, but for the first couple of years, I can admit that there was a lot of words that I didn't know, so I would just look at the pictures. Oh man, I had this thing called like animal fact files and it was like sent in the mail to me. It was just like the same thing where it's just like I'm reading this stuff like I have no idea what this means, but there's a picture of a Norka, and that's super cool. So I'm gonna read about it, I guess. I, I would always go to the did you know, you know, and I'm like, OK, this is much easier for me to understand, OK, I got it. And then, you know, I love that. So I think this kind of thing is super fantastic. So how does that come together? Do you have to, like, how long does it take you to write one of these?

 It really depends on the book anywhere from like a couple of weeks to a month or more, um, I definitely like try to spread out the typing, but it really depends like the first ones, like, it took a while cause like. Even as an environmental educator, like I felt like I was writing in a way that people could understand then work with my editor was like, like this is good, but yeah, you gotta loosen it up a little bit. It's still a little bit too much to digest. I said, OK, OK, I got it right, right, yes. I was like, OK, I got it, I got it, or like I'm like I wanna crown like so many interesting facts and like. Uh, our page limit is this, or like, well we can do 50 words for this. I was like, OK, let me see how I'm gonna do this. Um, so, but now I, I got it pretty down packed, um, a lot of things um that save time is like the first like. I was doing a book on the east coast, then a book on the west coast, but I narrowed down by being able to do like a couple like per region and some of those have like similar animals so I can have some of the same accounts and then I switch some of them out so it's not. Me doing 63 new animals um every time, yeah, it's, it's still hard because like there's in most states there's like over 2000 plus different types of animals so it's like how do I pick the best 63 and I'm like I don't know, I cheat some. Sometimes my editor was like, oh, these birds are very similar, so I can put them on like the red tail hawk and red shoulder haw. Yeah, I know, right? All right, let me, let me put them on. So, so some of them you get 65 or 68 different animals, right, right. No, I love it. I think it's a great way to get back. I love that you're, you like to write, and like I say, like it's really neat. I know you've got an article coming out in September just so to prove that you like birding. You, you have an article coming out in Birding magazine. Well, can you sneak peek at what, what it's about without spoiling the whole thing. Yes, it's about birding in the salt marsh. So yeah, it tells you different tips how to bird in the salt marsh and maybe some of the birds you can see. And the magazine is out now. I actually just got my copy yesterday. Oh wow. Oh, nice. OK, that's awesome. 

Some kingfishers, it's one of my favorites. Oh yeah, there, there are. are amazing. I, I really love the Kingfishers, and they actually teach humans some pretty cool technological advances, was it biomimicry, like the bullet trains in Japan are like at one time they were designed in a way that they were creating a sonic boom because of the way. They were designed and then they was looking at kingfishers and seeing how they dive in the water. They can break the tension without creating much of a splash. So they designed the bullet trains nose to break the tension like a kingfisher, and now it reduces the sound. And also, I think it like cut like the or increase the speed by like 3 to 5%. Somewhere in there like increase the speed and definitely um definitely the sound. Wow, that's some amazing and finally. I know I didn't write it down. Oh, I'm gonna look at, I mean, I already admire Kingfishers so much and then I'll be you hear them first and then you're like, where is it? Yeah, right, exactly. They are so full of sass, it's hilarious. There's like what they, they are, yes, yeah, yeah. Like, I've been chasing one for like the last couple of weeks, um, one of the parts on my bird at they're redoing the pond and then so the kingfisher is coming out and like I can hear it, so like, I finally found it and like it landed in the pond. And like on a brief perch and I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna get my camera out. Like it's gonna fly away and it stood there for 5 minutes and I was like, OK, I'm gonna get my camera out now and as soon as I got it up it flew away. Yeah, while giving you the finger, yeah, it's just that's them. Yeah, it's like, are you gonna get that camera out. OK, cool, now I'm going. No one will believe you. That's amazing. Well, and, OK, all of this, I love it. I love that this was all of this is the actual living breathing. Outcome of your childhood dreams like you wanted to be this like the people you're watching who are doing animal fun stuff and you're watching, so I love that now you're kind of fulfilling that role and there's people watching you. But like you said, when you were doing it, there were not role models of your same color, same persona doing it. How do you feel now being able to give back and do that and be that person? It's definitely like amazing and um fulfilling, like, there's been times when like people reached out on social media, uh like, for instance, like a couple of years ago, I posted like, They post about not looking like a scientist um because usually when you ask people what a scientist looks like, they'll give you like some cookie cutter, um, usually an older white male with glasses and a lab coat. Like I don't fit that mold, like I, I'm black, I'm fat, um, I, I laugh a lot. 

And so it's not that role that people like, oh, you're a scientist, um, I haven't worn a lab coat since what, like, College, um, so it's just interesting, um, to like, see, but anyways, I posted that, you know, like, I didn't really know like how many people were like watching me or gonna interact with it. They got like thousands of like likes and. Comments and like so many people are like, like, oh like my kid thinks you're the best scientist like he wants to um be a scientist like you um you're awesome scientist, yeah, so it's like tear jerking and like heartwarming and then another instance um when I was working with sea turtles and Um, Corpus Christi, Texas, um, I got to work up a whole sea turtle, and when I got done, there was a, a family, um, of two older ladies and some kids, um, they were their grandkids and um there were older black ladies, and they was like, just tell me like how proud they are of me and I'm telling their kids, here's a scientist, and it was just like heartwarming and it was like, especially encouraging, like, it's just something. About like an older woman like giving you just like I'm not sure like compliments so it's just like oh so it was like OK like yes you can be one of a doctor romo yes like thank you and it's like right, right, exactly like, like it's like I'm not crying it's the soft water that's sand in my eye. Yeah, yeah, so it's amazing and what, so I definitely just try to be that. I like to call it a mirror cause I mean, like I didn't have a representation, so I didn't have a mirror to see like, like it was possible even growing up 20 minutes from a national battlefield, 40 minutes from a national recreation area. There's no one who looked like me working there or even, um, in the STEM field, um, there, even at On Zoo Atlanta, I didn't see my first like black zookeeper or personal color zookeeper for that fact until I started working there when I was in college in my twenties. So it was, it was just like Now there's no excuse for, especially like teachers to say, oh, I can't find any good like pictures of any people of color scientists.

There's a lot of us out there and out here. Sometimes sadly still gotta go 34. 5 pages deep in Google to look unless you fit in person of color or black scientists, otherwise you just hit scientists or wildlife biologists. It's gonna be take a couple of pages, but there's representation out there. Yeah, there's still, there's still work to be done in this industry and environmental across the board, but glad to see you're doing it and just, you know, kudos to like, not having the role model, the path paid before you and still doing it. Like, I think that that's truly amazing. And to even go so far as participating in Black Birders Week. And Black mammalogist Week because there aren't a lot of people doing that. So where did those come from and how do you participate in those? Yeah, so, um, Black Birds Week, um, is definitely, um, when it all started. They originated from Two different impactful events um in 2020. 1 is the death of George Floyd by um police, and then the other is, which happened, I, I believe, on the same day, if not like a day before each other. The unfortunate event where Kristian Cooper, a black birder in New York City, was burning in Central Park and a white lady, um, called the police on him. And said that he was threatening her because he told her to put her dog on a leash in an area that is for birdie and it has a ordinance that says all dogs have to be on a leash um but uh as many times the woman cried and called the police and lied and said that he was threatening her and so the police came, which is a huge threat and could be. 

Life altering and could lead to death, especially in black and people of color, black and men and people of color in general, because it's, is pretty much a threat on your life and regardless of where you live, a lot of times, the police officer is gonna believe the woman and especially a white woman over a black man. So from those incidents, we want to show like this is It's something that's not new is sadly, it's common for people of color and black individuals to be accosted or harassed when they are just trying to do simple things in nature. So we created Black Burgers Week to show and amplify that, hey, black people love nature too, and we're out here, what is going on isn't something that um just happens sometimes, it actually happens quite for. but even so, we are reclaiming this space. Uh, we are out here, we're birding, we're doing field biology, we're doing great science work, and we are enjoying nature and, and then it also was a call to connect other black birders and nature enthusiasts to each other. Um, so that's how Black Birds Week started and it just started moving of many different black and next weeks from black biologists. Black and Marine Science Week, um, Black Botany Week, and, um, Black and Neuroscience Week, and so on. And from those weeks, there are many nonprofits now that amplify, well, not only amplify, but amplify and encourage movements as well as students and kids to pursue the SEM field, which is science, technology, engineering, arts, and math. 

And also advocating for being your 100% truly unapologetic, authentic black self. I love it. I think it's fantastic. It's unfortunate that these circumstances are the reasons these have come into light, but let's keep them here, so I appreciate all of that. And what kind of takeaways do you have from it and seeing the kind of people that come out and they're maybe their first time coming out to go birding. Yeah, so some of the great takeaways is one like the community. I've met so many different people um from it, people who live right here, um, in Atlanta that I never knew who lived here, um, and we were able to connect as well as people from other parts of the country, but also like just definitely in um uprising of, of like black birders from people living. In rural areas, so people living in a city that like oh we got city birds too like we like OK we're not just seeing regular pigeons there's falcons that live in city in some areas, um, as well as just like, like, OK, we haven't wanted to bird but we never knew how and showing. And like, sure, like binoculars are a great tool for birding, but you don't really need anything to bird. You can just sit at your porch and see them look out your window. You don't have to go to any parks, but you can literally just walk down the street and see so many different birds in these species, um, and some of them have the same. Kind of apply as um as black people being brought over from our country um to here a lot of times against us will, especially our first ancestors as slaves that birds like house sparrows, um, the European starlings all came over here, um. One brought them over here and now I'm there have made this place their home, and there are still birds that people can be excited about seeing. Those are some of the birds I, I really love, especially like the house sparrows and, and the pigeons or rock doves. Um, I really love them. They're, I love them because they're like they're, they're. 

Bresilient, um, you can find them in some rural areas that you can find them in the city. You can see them in that at baseball games, um, checking out the popcorn, rooting on the Braves. They're participating, right, right, yes, yeah, so you know, like how Sparrow is like the coolest name. It's like it's just it's just if it had a different name, people would be like that bird's so cool. It looks it's just called a house sparrow. I don't know why yeah, yeah, they are so cool and yeah, if it, yeah, if it definitely had a different name it would be amazing. I don't know. I feel like they should be like, hey, I don't know. Like I've seen them most randomly. I have seen like 4 different hospitals in airports, but like they're always in grocery stores or like the Walmart, Walmart or Home Depot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they know where it's up, right, right. Yeah, they are not afraid of people. They should get more credit for that for being. But uh yeah, I love the urban birds. I, I was in um a park here in Brooklyn recently and there was a peregrine falcon, two of them, a pair of them circling the park, and it was me and one other couple who were like, look at that. We're like, oh that's amazing. The rest of the park just going about like a regular day. We're like, no, but it's, it's so. That's hilarious. Oh, that's. Yeah, that's great. You, you could find the birder in that situation. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, I had like one of my roommates in college, like he was a birder and I was like he was studying proprietary warblers. I was studying box turtles, and there's a picture of us in the same forest, right? And he's up and I'm looking down, and it's just like, this is our job, our job where are we looking. Oh that's, that's funny. One forest TVs, yeah, right, right, exactly. Yeah. Oh, we're getting close to our time. Before we do, we wanted to touch base on you were working for the parks recently and then sort of another victim to budget cuts and the things that are currently happening. 

So we just wanted to give you a chance to maybe speak to that and, you know, how great was it to work for the parks and what are you planning to do next? Yeah, so I did work for the parks. It was a great experience. It was a chance for me to come back home long term. Um, I was working in DC um before this, and this was my take it home and back into Atlanta and Georgia and to be able to work there, um, a park unit that I grew up visiting was so amazing. I was able to tell people who came to the park about on the Chattahoochee River and things that I got to enjoy when I was growing up from being able to hike on some of the trails or tubing down the river that sadly I was terminated from that position. Two different times in 6 months, uh, because, yeah, uh because of the uh new uh administration, the, the Trump administration, um, the first time was in February on Valentine's Day, um. I received an email that said my probationary was not, was being terminated and that was it and no one knew anything about it. Um, they didn't let my supervisor know or anything. They just sent me an email which I happened to come back from. A um vacation on to see that I have been terminated and not even like just terminated, be wrongfully terminated on the basis of my performance which was not even evaluated by the people. who sent it to me, they two different people was listed on there that I had never met and my latest performance value was successful, was outstanding, and for them to say that was like you guys never even Met me, so how could you have evaluate my performance? And like I said, my supervisor didn't know anything about it. 

They didn't even CC her on me, so I had to reach out and say, hey, um, I'm terminated. Yeah, so I was terminated and then for 45 days I didn't work, but thankfully the court overruled it, so I was able to come back to work in mid. March and I worked back as an environmental protection specialist. I'm up until July 15th when my term wasn't renewed, and that was the second time that I was being let go by the National Park Service in the span of a couple of months. And, um, this time it's because my position doesn't align with the president's priorities to keep all parks open and accessible. Yeah, that's wild, and thank you very much for sharing, and it's um I have lots of thoughts. Um, yeah, but I genuinely appreciate you sharing it. Uh, I know it's not easy to do, and it's not really, it's not we're gonna end the interview, but I really appreciate that you took the time to share that with us because it's not, not a fun time. But if this is any indication, I think you're gonna be fine. Like this is, you've been great here, really loved getting to know you a little bit, and I want to end on a couple of things, but One is like, we love to share our field stories, and I know you've got them. 

We've already sort of talked a lot a little bit about your work outside. So this is the part of the show where we like share memorable moments of people doing the job, this funny, scary, awkward field stories, so to speak. And if you guys want to send us one, you can send it at info@environmentalprofessionalsradio.com. But Alex, uh, you told us about the first time you saw a nesting sea turtle, which is a once in a lifetime thing for most people. What was that like? Yes, so, the first time I saw an S and sea turtle, it was so many different emotions. It was amazing, it was scary. Um, it was like heart-wrenching and beautiful, but the story goes, I was riding with my volunteer and I was riding, and it was like my first official day after training and like, I'm like, OK, I gotta find these turtle tracks. I don't want to miss them. So we're driving down and it's just now starting to get done, and I see a giant rock, like in the surf zone, and I'm like, Man, that's a big rock. and I'm just keep looking at it. I'm just looking at a rock and then finally like this rock is slowly crawling. I'm like. The rock is moving and then it took a couple of seconds then I was like, oh my gosh, that's a sea turtle. Um, and then like I was like super pumped and then like I was telling my volunteer I was like, hey, hey, hey, it's a sea turtle, and they didn't show any emotion at all. They just looked at me like, I know. OK. Um, yeah, so we got to go up, um, we sat at a safe distance, um, and watched the sea turtle finish crawling out of the water, and then they started digging and once they started digging, um, we wait for them to go into a, a trance, and during that trance is when they are laying their eggs, and that's when we can go out, actually conduct. Our scientific work.

 So we measure them, we take biological samples, we put a stringer in the nest like a rope to be able to locate the nest after they cover it, put metal tagonal, um, uh, electronic pig tat. So we're doing all this in a matter of minutes while they're laying the eggs and then finally we get done with all that and we scoop back and Let her finish laying her eggs and then she starts covering her eggs and there's also like they also do like a body slam where they're like tamping the sand down to cover the nest. So it's just pretty cool to watch that and then like after a while she just turns back around and goes in. Into the water and like a little slow crowd and like you watch it and it's, it's like the shell is like getting smaller and smaller and finally it just goes away and it's like, oh you did it. Meanwhile, like she's walking away like I can't believe you thought I was a rock, yeah, so, yes, exactly, you know. Ever seen a rock do that before? I don't think, right, yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh, yeah, that's it's, it's so amazing and it's like your first time is like so like seeing it like the whole complete thing is like amazing and It's scary at the same time because you're like trying to watch this beautiful moment but also trying to do your work like, OK, did I do everything like did I call in on radio yeah so it's crazy. 

This has been so much fun. I don't want it to end, but I do want to, before we end and give you a chance to, so also again, thank you for sharing your park service story, but also if you want to tell people, are you looking for a next thing or like, what should we look out for you? Are you publishing more books? I know you are. And then also just if you have any other final thoughts that you would like to leave us with. Yeah, so I definitely am, I'm looking for work. So yeah, if you have anything, let me know. If you are looking to get in touch with me, um, I, OK, the universe just rang a doorbell. Yes, yes, the universe opens the doors. So yeah, I'm looking for, you know, positions. I'm also. I'm available for speaking engagements, um, classroom visits, both virtual in person, um, elite nature hikes, um, teach people how to fish and hunt. Um, so yeah, if you're interested, you can reach me on social media @ n8ture_al and my email is N 8 T U R E _A L at gmail.com. Awesome. Thank you, Alex. This has been absolutely amazing and fun and great meeting you. So thanks for joining us today. And you're welcome. Thank you all for having me. That's our show. Thank you, Alex, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Bye. See you, everybody.