Going from Sanitation to Nuclear, Financing the Future, and Climate Curiosity with Marilyn Waite

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Marilyn Waite, lifelong environmental actionist about Going from Sanitation to Nuclear, Financing the Future, and Climate Curiosity.   Read her full bio below.

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Connect with Marilyn Waite at https://www.linkedin.com/in/marilynwaite

Guest Bio: 
Marilyn currently leads the Climate Finance Fund, supported by the Hewlett Foundation and hosted by the European Climate Foundation. 

Previously, Marilyn led energy and cleantech investments at Village Capital, managed nuclear and renewable energy projects at AREVA (now Orano), and served as a Senior Research Fellow at Project Drawdown, where she led a team to analyze, model, and forecast energy solutions to climate change. Marilyn also worked at the intersection of science and policy at the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and in economic development at the United Nations in Madagascar. 

A multilingual speaker and author of Sustainability at Work: Careers that Make a Difference, Marilyn has addressed audiences across five continents on a number of topics in sustainability, including investing, climate change, water, and energy.

Marilyn holds a Master’s Degree with distinction in Engineering for Sustainable Development from the University of Cambridge and a Bachelor’s of Science Degree in Civil and Environmental Engineering (magna cum laude) from Princeton University. 

Marilyn's vision is a world where sustainability values of social cohesion, environmental consciousness, inter-generational equity, and economic health drive decision-making and business practices.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental enthusiasts, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Laura and I talk about why we ask people what they do for fun. We interview Marilyn Waite about going from sanitation to nuclear, financing the future, and climate curiosity. And finally, giraffes are 30 times more likely to get hit by lightning than people. True, there are only 5 well documented fatal lightning strikes on giraffes between 1996 and 2010, but due to the population species being just 140,000 during this time. It makes for about a 0.003 lightning deaths per 1000 giraffes each year. This is 30 times the equivalent fatality rate for humans. I don't know. I was trying not to laugh the whole time. I feel I should feel bad, but I know I'm like, why are you laughing? What's happening? I don't need to. It's just, it's just they're taller. So of course, I guess I've never thought of it, but it makes sense, and I feel bad, but for whatever reason it's making me laugh. So away from giraffes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know they, yeah, I'm on a list now. 

Oh, hit that music. 

NAEP just completed another round of essential and advanced NEPA workshops. Our next event is scheduled in person for November 13 and 14th in Denver, Colorado. These training art workshops are designed for emerging and experienced environmental professionals engaged in the preparation of Environmental assessments and environmental impact statements to fulfill the federal lead agency responsibilities pursuant to the National Environmental Policy Act. These courses are designed to help you understand the requirements and how to fulfill the spirit and legislative intent of NEPA. That's absolutely essential in a time like this where agency policies are being updated rapidly. Please check that out at www.NAEP.org. 

Let's get to our segment.

So Laura, we got a request for a segment and we did from who? I'm pretty sure it's from Sam, but we're not gonna necessarily, it's not from Sam. It's from Kacie, I think, I think. OK, so we're going to say it's from an anonymous source and definitely not one of the five of us, but the question was basically, why do we ask people what they do for fun? And I think it's a great place. Laura, I think this is actually one of the ways that you and I knew we would be good at doing this together, it's because of this specific question. So I think it's a great thing for you to talk a little bit about why we decided to do that. Well, we, the whole premise of the show was connecting environmental professionals, and I think if you're going to connect with people genuinely, one of the things that you're going to do is talk about what you do outside of work. Yeah. Yeah, it's easy to connect on, we all care about the environment, but And asking people this question for the last 4 years, it's very clear that we all like to do similar things. So that's one purpose of it was just like another way to show that we're all relatable. But that's the other part of it is for young people or someone who's getting into the field to go, Oh, I do fit in with them, even if they have 1020 years, 30 years of experience on me. I also love to go kayaking and I love to go traveling and have adventures. Like we all have that in common. 

Yeah, and it's also really fun to hear like different answers, right? Sometimes the answer is, I love doing exactly what you think, which is kayaking, and sometimes the answer is, I love playing rugby. I think honestly that's my favorite response. Shall gentleman like where she had like the data science background, and that was one of her hobbies. That's pretty cool and it's kind of fun to say, like, you know, we, we come from different backgrounds, we have different interests, like one's needs, but they're all over the map in a really delightful way. Yeah, so we all have these cross-cutting things, but even that, you know, Marley is our possibly pro soccer person on our team. You know, so when we have someone on and she goes, Oh, they're also a sports person. Like, it's OK to be an environmental professional and show up however you are showing up to your job every day, but at the same time, it's OK to be human and these other interests. And so, and be a goal, right, you know, from like 30 yards away and have it be picked up on social media, for example. Exactly, so it's just more interesting. I think personally without learning that deeper part of stuff, it would be very superficial. 

Yeah, and it's also like, you know, one of the reasons we talk about connections. It's like, this is an easy way for you to connect with somebody that you're interested in, and maybe you will have the same interest as this person. They're a Cincinnati Bengals fan and you like how your dad watches the Cincinnati Bengals, whoever you picked it up, and now you have a conversation starting, you're like, hey, I've been watching the Cincinnati Bengals since I was 6. And you can talk about it, and that person will be delighted. And I don't know what your experience is like, but when people you don't know, ask you for advice, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but if someone asks you about, you know, your favorite whatever, you could talk about that for hours and then they ask you for advice, you're a lot more receptive to saying more things. It's almost like an open door, so to speak. Yeah, exactly. I mean, knowing that Matt Seal is such a huge Lego nerd. That's an easy entry point of conversation over sustainability if you're just learning it or haven't even learned much about it at all, right? Ay, that's such a and that story he told about it was so human, right? Where it's his wife watching the Lego movie with the dad who was very obsessed with the Legos, just turning over and looking at him like this is you, you realize it's such a human thing. We've all been there. You're like, oh no, I do that too. So yeah, I think that's kind of it. I mean, that's pretty much the reason and uh you know, it's still one of my favorite parts of almost every interview is just finding out what else do you do, you know, it's not just the cool stuff, what else do you do? Yeah, exactly, and it's like, show me your human part at the end. And uh, but I don't know, do we, we talk about stuff, but have, have we exhausted all of the things that you do for fun, comedy? Well, we talked about music, you know, I think a little bit. Music was like the first thing you and I connected on and like, you know, that was pretty cool. But I mean, you know, like the rest of it's also like I love going to like uh camping and Kayaking and I just did that last weekend and that was pretty fun. And, you know, I love doing that. Exactly. You know what, like, NEAP really wants to get everyone together. 

There should be like a camping component of the conference or something. I literally just had that idea. I was like, you know what'd be great is if we, like, my team at Dawson, if we all had a camping trip, it'd be super fun. And then I was like, does that make me, I feel like I've just crossed all the way into dadhood without being a dad, that is like. Well let's to go on a camping trip, right guys? And they're like, oh, nobody wants to do that, you know, but you know, that's. I would go if someone set it up. I would go. That's all I'm saying. Awesome. Well, what about yours? Do we get it? Are there any other, uh, interest you have too many. You like everything. I feel like, not really. I don't like many things like I like, I like to keep it simple. So, but I, I do fall into the typical environmental professional. Persona or camping, kayaking, hiking, but when was the last time I went hiking, scuba diving. When was the last time I went scuba diving? So when we ask these people what do you do for fun, it's more like, what are you obsessed about doing? Yeah. And for me it's working so sad, but like, but I, you know, in travel, but I combine the two together. Yeah, yeah, but and eating food, like I think my biggest joy this week has been getting a cafe called lache with Non-dairy milk and decaf, like, I don't know if that's fun, but for me, I'm like, this is heaven. Yeah, yeah, but that it really is, that's the whole point, right? It's fun for you. And there's always more than one person that's there, right in the same boat, like, yeah, cafe con leche, that's the coolest part about it. Exactly. So if you are also lactose intolerant and can't drink coffee, and you would still like to have a cafe con leche, that's legit, I will tell you where you can get that. All you gotta do is ask. That's a perfect way to end, I think. Let's, let's get to our interview. 

Welcome back to EPR. Today we have Marilyn Wait with us. Marilyn is the managing director of the Climate Finance Fund and a lifelong environmental actionist. Welcome, Marilyn. Thank you for having me, Laura. I'm super excited to have you because it's been a long time since we've had someone from overseas, so, um. It's been a long time since I've been, actually, I went to Paris, I think 2 years ago. Is that where you are right now? Yes, I'm in the Paris area in a place called I Le Molino. Oh, I love that. Are you from France? Partly, I have 3 nationalities. France is one of them, uh, the US is another, and Jamaica is a third. Oh, that's an interesting mix. Uh, what's your, what's been your favorite place to live? That's a great question. Well, I've lived in a lot more and various continents. So Madagascar, South Africa, China, St. Lucia, etc. Every place has their pro and con, you know, so, OK, that's amazing. But I need to know more. How do you decide where you're going and when to pull up stakes and go to the next one? Well, a lot of the previous, I guess travels have been due to studies and various work opportunities. So it really just depends on on where life takes me. I do have a one year old son right now, so. I think I will be a lot more discerning travels and future moving, you know, packing up to move may it takes on a different meaning, let's say right now. But yeah, I think it really just depended on the circumstances in terms of where and I, I definitely learned a lot in each country where I've lived. And I think I try to take those perspectives with me in the work going forward. Yes, absolutely. I feel like having traveled a lot also. I haven't lived as many places, but I've traveled a lot and. Having that perspective of people living different ways and different cultures and, you know, especially in America, the way you do things here doesn't mean it's the right way for everyone else, and trying different food and just meeting new people is such an incredible experience, and you have two engineering degrees, and then your career has also spanned a lot of different areas as well. 

Engineering, energy policy, finance. So how did you get into those different areas? So I did study civil and environmental engineering with a specialty on the environmental side, although I still learned a lot about concrete and steel all civil engineers do. I went to Madagascar for my first job, right out of studying engineering and undergraduate studies. I went to Madagascar with the United Nations and I was helping for some kinds of complementary projects in the school programs that they were supporting, especially around water and sanitation and related infrastructure. And it was actually in Madagascar that I had in the hot moment around energy, energy access, reliability, because I was in the south of the country, which is completely different from the North, you know, north rainforest type of environment, the South very drought prone. And so the local utility company, which ran hydro, you know, small scale hydropower stations, they ran. Out of water, they ran out of money. So I went for a lot of months without electricity and had to use backup diesel generators and all kinds of craziness and I saw the impact that had on You know, businesses, if you can remember the days of cyber cafes, those were those days so they went out, they went out of business, refrigeration companies, you know, um, all kinds of negative impacts and consequences of not having stable, reliable electricity. And so I shifted my focus from there from water resources to. Energy and then I eventually work in the nuclear energy field, and I worked in a number of capacities from recycling spent fuel at a nuclear power plant to supporting the construction of new reactors. 

And eventually I made my way to corporate research and development or R&D where I was working on their water energy nexus. So things kind of came full circle. Of course, very different scale water energy nexus they. The waste heat from nuclear power plants, for example, to power, let's say a desalination plant and trying to be as energy efficient as possible. And then I also had this portfolio of supporting due diligence around renewable energy technology. So offshore wind, concentrated solar power, and all of this was really exciting. And what I noticed in those roles was that a lot of our troubles in getting any kind of low carbon energy technology to market was. Less on the engineering, innovation or project management side, it was really on the finance side, especially I would say renewable energy technologies because at that time, they just wasn't the same track record as the incumbents, especially oil and oil and gas and coal. And so I decided to focus, you know, shift the focus towards finance investment from there, and I had a number of roles and in all kinds of parts of the financial ecosystem, including, let's say, clean tech or climate tech venture capital. Which leads me up to today where I am currently managing a portfolio, a philanthropic portfolio focusing on climate finance, so essentially mobilizing capital to solve climate change, invest in climate solutions. And so that has been my, my background and the common thread I would say is this notion of sustainability, people and planets, and definitely care for and you can insert the environment for people, for society. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, it sounds like from day one you've been doing really impactful, meaningful work, but I, I'm curious, what is it like, what does a day in the life look like of someone who's working with nuclear reactors? It depends on how you're working with them. I mean, a lot of, you know, there is a lot of roles, let's say, which are desk roles, if you're involved on the pure design, you know, calculation component, if you're a safety engineer that's not an operational engineer, but you're just, you know, looking at various parameters for any kind of intervention, like anything new to a new plant would have to go through a safety check and so you might have to run a lot of calculations and. 

So it would kind of look like a desk job in that way. Now, if you're working at an actual power plant in a safety role or operational role, that could look very different. And I actually did work in shifts for a period of time when I was working at the nuclear power plant and that you're looking at controls, you're just checking to make sure things are running smoothly from operations. Obviously, a lot of that is remote because you can't normally you can't. Go in and touch the other radioactive materials, right? So there's a lot of things that are happening from a control room, like you can imagine, that would be the case in the space industry, if you're working for NASA and so on, similar in a nuclear setting. And then sometimes you do have to shut down a component of the operations to be able to go in. I have manipulated plutonium in a glove box. That's interesting. So sometimes. Sometimes you kind of have to go in and do that kind of thing as well. And so it really depends on your role within such a big industry. Obviously, the nuclear industry has all the components from mining uranium, so you could, you know, have a mining job to, you know, in some countries like France, which are not like the US for example, which will recycle used fuel, you can have a lot of roles and taking that used fuel, chopping it up. Dissolving it and then creating new fuel. So there's a whole cycle and it can be a rather closed loop cycle. Yeah, so there's a lot that goes on in the nuclear energy industry. Right? In my mind, it sounds very daunting. And so I'm going to where I think some of my career coaching persons would say, how much of your schooling helps you with that and how much did you have to learn while on the job? I think the schooling helped me develop a sense of adaptability, so that I was comfortable with. Changing roles, evolving, it helped me lean into curiosity, ask questions, that's very important. Any kind of high stakes environment, I think the healthcare sector is similar if you're working in an emergency room, for example, it's high stakes, right? And, and working in nuclear, if you're especially on the at the plant level is also high stakes and you really cannot make. You have to build in redundancies and, and so on. I think having a questioning mind is very important, being able to question authority as well. So because we're all human, we all can make mistakes. And so that's like kind of part of the creation of a, of a safe environment is being able to question someone that might be in a higher position, let's say in the hierarchy. 

And so I think the educational training helped all of those things. I mean, of course, there's some being comfortable with Excel and running numbers, all of those things kind of also help, but I think because things change so quickly, I think developing some of those, those skills, you know. Certain skills like curiosity, adaptation, questioning, analysis, you know, those things that you can apply across sectors and so on. That's the kind of true value of all of those problems sets we do in engineering, I think. Awesome. I, your work just sounds so interesting. And so now you've turned to climate finance. It sounds like What you had been seeing is that we have the technology and maybe we know how to, what we should be doing, but we don't have the finances to make these projects come to life. Right. Well, and what I found after looking into that question of, you know, do we have the financial capital to solve our pressing challenges like climate change, like all kinds of environmental degradation, pollution, biodiversity crisis, etc. Well, what I found was that we have abundant capital. Financial capital is actually not the problem. It is the allocation of that capital that's the problem. So just on private finance alone, so let's forget for a second, public budget. So the budget that government has that comes from taxpayers. If we just look at private wealth globally, we have over $450 trillion US dollars. OK. And estimates do range, but I'm going to use the figure of we need $4 trillion US dollars every year to solve climate change in terms of investments. So 4 trillion versus $450 trillion right? We can all do the math. Like, we have the money, even, you know, world GDP every year is roughly over $100 trillion. US dollars, so even 1% of that is material to our needs, our goals in terms of solving climate change. So there's really no excuse in terms of the dearth of capital that we're witnessing. What is the problem is that the money is on the sidelines and it's not being allocated to the climate solutions at the level we need. And so the question becomes how do we incentivize that capital to move. How do we disincentivize the capital from moving into the harmful areas where, which is where it is, you know, we are subsidizing fossil fuels at $7 trillion US dollars every year. So those are two parts of the equation that we have to solve for. It actually becomes a much more interesting engineering problem because if it was just about. Having sufficient capital, I guess, problem solved already because we actually do. OK, so tell us about the climate finance fund. What is their role in all of this? 

So the Climate Finance Fund is a philanthropic fund backed by the William and Flour Hewlett Foundation, and we are using our capital now, our capital is in the tens of millions. We're talking, you know, 75. billion over 5 years to help mobilize more capital. So while we are working on a scale of, let's just call it 100 million in terms of the portfolio we manage, we are looking to influence those trillions through two primary strategies. One. Strategy is systemic change. So how do we at a systems level, ensure that the rules of the financial capital game work in favor of people and planet, because the status quo of the financial system is that. It does not work in favor of people on the planet. I wouldn't even say it's agnostic towards people on planet. I would say there are a number of rules and regulations that make the financial system skew towards harm. So how do we change the rules of the game? That's a systemic change work. So we'll back research, we'll back think tanks, we'll back. Communications, we'll back ideas, we'll back anything that we can do to change those rules. The second pillar is really about market demonstration. So how can we, through participating in various investment vehicles, financial products, etc. de. Straight to the market, that's something the market perceives as not feasible actually is. And so in this case, we will support, for example, the Clean Energy Credit Union in the United States, it's a federally chartered credit union that not only is dedicated to clean energy lending. But also it's helping to teach the other 5000 credit unions in the country how to do this lending so it can scale also at a systems level. We will help create new financial products. There's something called Climate Solutionstocks.com that we backed, which brings full visibility into most of the world's stock exchanges, listed companies in terms of what. The climate solutions stocks available. So you can go right now on that website and find out in Indonesia listed on the Indonesian Stock Exchange, what are the climate solutions companies? There's geothermal, there's solar development, there's electric buses, etc. in South Africa, in Kenya, in Brazil, because really, we have to have all hands on deck and that includes geographically. In order to solve the climate crisis. 

So we have these two pillars, systemic change and innovative finance to serve as that market demonstration as a way of helping to influence those trillions. OK, that is amazing work. How does one, so let's say, uh I know we had another guest on here who's a part of a group in Arizona that is working kind of as an incubator, but also just like half networking, half incubator, trying to build some momentum around supporting and providing this type of help to clean energy, clean tech that's happening in that area. How do they get involved with you? So we focused on 3 pools of capital, let's say the lending side, so lending from mostly depository institutions, banks and credit unions. We focus on asset managers, asset management, which is mostly through, let's say retirement funds, the investing side of insurance companies, pension funds, and that's mostly, let's say, stocks and. Bonds, although there's other asset classes involved in that. And then the third is venture capital, and that pool of capital will be most closely tied to the incubator and accelerator world. And so we have worked with incubators and accelerators and venture builders in the past. For example, we have backed new energy nexus to launch a climate fintech study report to kind of understand the lay of the land. And also a launch a challenge to kind of like a prize, global prize where climate fintech companies across the globe could apply and receive cash to help scale their ventures. So we had done things like that in the past, we tend not to intervene at the subnational level in any of the economies where we work, and we do tend to focus on capital domiciled in China, the US, the European Union. Although for the past year and a half, we have been moving towards, well, how do we get the capital from those economies into the broader global South and some more low and middle income economies. I would say using my, my previous hat where I was leading an energy practice in a venture capital firm, I would say it is the sub-national work is extremely important and the networking of them so that the actual the startups who are innovating. Wherever they are in the world can get the support they need. And I would say when you're at the small and medium sized enterprise level or SME level, that's where the financial system is its weakest, um, you know, a large multinational company has no trouble getting loans and all kinds of capital to scale its operations, but really it's the global SMEs that need the most support. And that's. Where we have the most work to do as a financial system to support those SMEs. OK, awesome. 

That's a good distinction. And something I think important for these engineers and people working on these solutions, if they are in a sub type of level that they realize and recognize that maybe that there's opportunities to level up or to seek higher help and funding. And so what other like trends or challenges are you seeing in the climate finance world? Well, I would say at this juncture, one of the biggest challenges is the dearth of capital in low and middle income countries, also low middle income communities in high income countries. There's a statistic I use roughly 15 cents out of every dollar crosses the border into an emerging market for climate finance. And it should be the other way around. It should be 75 cents of every dollar because 75% of emissions are happening in the global South. Most of the economic growth and thus emissions growth is happening in the global South. In the next decade, you know, most of the infrastructure that's going to be built will be built in places like Nigeria and India and Brazil. And so really, I think we have, we've been a bit negligent, we've overlooked. The global majority, the masses in many ways, including finance for emerging markets and developing economies. And that's kind of one of the major challenges to solve for now, including incentivizing capital in the global North to reach the global South. So for example, right now, if I have a retirement account in the US, it could be a 401K, it could be a 403B, it could be an IRA, you know, there's all of these schemes. And acronyms I know for supporting, saving for retirement. There's virtually no product that I can think of on the market today that will allow me even to place a small amount, even let's say 100 bucks into a fund that's dedicated to investing in sustainability and climate solutions and emerging markets. Yeah, that's often where the return. higher returns are generated. Just to give you one example, in 2019, the Jamaica Stock Exchange was the highest returning stock exchange in the world. Yeah, oftentimes it's an emerging market stock exchange that are bringing these higher returns. And so in order to have a high, well, first of all, a diversified kind of one on one of good investing is diversification. So in order to have that diversity in one's portfolio, but also those returns, we all should. from a retail level to an institutional level, investing in low and middle income economies, AKA the global South. And I think we need to create those opportunities and create and those incentives, including tax incentives, including more visibility towards opportunities for placing one's capital into that, especially, especially, especially environmentally friendly, climate friendly products globally. Yeah, that makes so much sense and I don't, I don't think I ever thought about that. I have been asking my financial advisors for decades, how can I pick and choose where to put my money? I don't want it in this certain industry and I don't want it here, and they kind of looked at me like, what do you mean? I don't understand the question. More recently it's a question they're understanding, but I had not really considered looking at the emerging economies and saying like, where can I invest there? 

Yeah, so check out Climate solutions that, I mean. In terms of US based funds, there are, we've worked with a number of institutions and products sphere, it's like a fossil fuel free, large cut index that's on the market. Carbon Collective has an ETF and I think a bond product now that's focused on climate solutions and, and, and, and we need to have emerging markets, markets put on the table and Climate Solutionstocks.com at least brings visibility um so next time you speak with your advisor, you can say, hey, listen, can you place X amount of capital in these stocks? Give me something that works, you know, according to my, here's my risk profile, you know it, do your thing and, and place the capital. Um, so we have some visibility there. I think another aspect of the financial equation that we overlook, including for emerging markets, is just the banking side, banking and credit unions, because for every dollar you have in your bank account or your credit. Union account, the Bank of Credit Union is leveraging that at least 10 times on average to go out and make loans. So by banking with Climate First Bank, for example, in the United States, or by opening up account in, let's say, a credit union in Kenya dedicated to green lending in rural communities, which, you know, a lot of these exist, then I'm having an impact. I'm getting, you know, a standard return that's guaranteed oftentimes by the government, no matter where you are. it's a bank or credit union, you know, up to a certain amount. And I'm having an impact because the Bank of Credit Union is making these loans and it's changing lives and it's changing emissions and it's, it's real. And so I think that's another place to look. And we can open, oftentimes you can open up a, you know, savings accounts, not only in your home country, but also in other countries and have the same benefits. OK, yes, back this up for me. I, I'm not aware of this. I can open a bank account in Kenya? Yes, you can. So I'm one of the things. One of the thing, the reason why I mentioned Kenya, we're actually, OK, I'll mention two particular potential opportunities, but we're working with kind of a World Association of Credit unions and the Kenyan, what they're called sackos, they're savings institutions, they operate like credit unions, especially they're cooperative banks, right, in terms of governance. And there are over 150 of them in Kenya. They're highly trusted by communities. 

They serve disadvantaged communities. As well. So there's a lot of parallels with the credit union industry that's say in the US. There's all kinds of membership schemes and so we're working with a few to set up green deposit savings accounts where the money would be specifically geared towards providing more climate friendly loans and that can look like solar plus storage. It can look like, you know, electric and energy efficient equipment for farming. It can look like, you know, helping convert a farm to. Organic and improve the soil quality so that the soil can sequester more carbon. It can look like electric anything, electric bus, electric vehicle, moving away from the internal combustion engines. So all of those products on the table. And there's two that are likely to pursue this. One is actually called the Kenya USA Saco. And actually, the Kenyan diaspora in the United States started this SAO. So they are really geared. To, um, if you're also a US citizen or US resident or what have you, there's one also called K Unity, and they have a diaspora account. And so when they have these like diaspora accounts, they're already attracting people who are outside of the country, right? And so even if you open an account with them today, you're going to have a positive societal impact as they work on specific green products. I could go on and on and on because this exists rolled over. That's amazing. I have no idea. Yeah. And there's a, and just like the United States, you know, for a credit union or bank or Sacco or bank in Kenya's case, a certain amount would be insured by the federal government, right? And so it's super, super low risk, um, and impactful. Yeah, that's amazing. Thanks for sharing that. I'm always trying to educate myself. I feel like I don't know anything about finances and I'm probably 95% more educated than most people. So, I really appreciate you sharing this information. Absolutely, absolutely. And in terms of the banks and credit unions in the United States, if that's of interest, there's a few databases, Mighty Deposits has a database, Green America has a database, for example, B Lab has a database for all B certified companies, including banks that are B Corps, like Climate First Bank, Amalgamated, Sunrise, etc. etc. And so there's a lot of information and easy accessible information available. That's awesome. I want the people listening, especially. 

Younger emerging professionals to realize this to like start planning now and start listening to this type of advice because, oh, I could only imagine if my whole life I've been putting money in places where it can make an impact, you know, that would be so exciting. But I could talk to you about this forever. But let's move on to, I want to, um, make sure that we talk about your book Sustainability at Work. So you've already released a second edition. So what did you learn from the first one and what's happening in the second one? So the 2nd edition of Sustainably at Work careers to Make a Difference has been updated. Across the board, since the health pandemic shifted many things about the workplace, not only in terms of remote working, but I think just in terms of the way an entire generation may approach work, let's say. And so there's been updates across the board, there's been more introduction of very practical hands on tools and advice for developing one's career, thinking about roles, thinking about what you are particularly. Good at or what kind of situation role you will flourish in. But also there's two more chapters, one on climate related careers and the other on Jedi related careers, Jedi being justice, equity, diversity and inclusion, and how that intersects with the environment and the climate movement and. Just a broader lens of sustainability. And so those two chapters, the two editions, I think, have been really important and impactful in this, in this new edition. That's awesome. And so you also teach at the university in France. Is the book related to that and mentoring that you've done or where did the inspiration from it come from? Well, I do use the book, so I do lecture sometimes at Sciences Po, teach ESG strategies and the book is used in that context. However, the backstory for the book, you know, really started after I started to study engineering sustainable development and then into the workplace, and after observing kind of a disconnect really between theory and practice and what I found was that actually, you know, you can integrate sustainable. Ability and these concepts into any field, any sector, and that actually, if we're going to succeed in driving, let's say the 17 sustainable development goals of the United Nations, then we will have to bring this to the workplace. We can't just leave it at home. So we can't just do the best we can at home in terms of our purchasing, our lifestyle, our living. 

We actually have to transform the companies. Where we work, the operations, if we're going to have that overall transformation in line with sustainable development. And so that's the thesis behind the book is that anyone in any sector can integrate sustainability and can find both purpose and satisfaction through the sustainability lens. And there's a lot of narratives covered in terms of, you know, real people and real places doing this kind of work. And how applying sustainability and a framework that I call surf, SURF helps to structure one's career and opportunities and helps one kind of integrate as well, social and environmental sustainability in one's career path. Amazing and working with your students and people who've read this book and given you feedback, what is maybe your top piece of advice for someone looking to get into this type of work? I think the first thing is actually to start with your strengths. So forget the content for a second around any particular kind of environmental or social intervention or forget the problem solution, forget the theory of change, all those things. Think about you as a person and what your particular strengths are. Because when you focus on those strengths, you're likely to be happier in whatever you're doing, and you're likely to make the people around you happier. And it becomes a virtuous cycle. And I wouldn't worry too much about improving all the weaknesses because all human beings. Have some kind of weakness or things that they're not the top 1% of, but everyone has the things that they are, you know, they excel in and so I would lean into one understand one's strengths, and then lean into those strengths as a first step, and then everything else can be layered on. Awesome. 

We are getting close to time, so I would love to stay there too for a while, but we have a segment called # Field Notes. It's the part of our show where we talk to our guests about memorable moments doing the work. We ask people who are listening to also send their funny, scary, awkward field stories with us so we can read them on future episodes to info@environmentalprofessionalsradio.com, and if you go to our website, there's now also a form where you can go ahead and submit it. So, Marilyn, any stories that you have, maybe one about a landfill in East Africa? Well, I was just on a trip to Nairobi in Kenya, and I visited with a group of people, the largest landfill in in East Africa, a place called Andorra, and it was, I would say one of those life changing experiences where I was like, I am not ever going to buy a plastic. You know, water bottle ever again, I will look and find the glass. Anything that's sustainable, of course, I refill if it's available, bring my own bottle, refill, of course, of course, of course. But if I'm in a situation where I have to buy something new, I will have to look for the non plastic option. And it was just, it's very difficult to describe. It's just like a city of waste. Yeah. And mountains of waste, and you see the textiles and you see the plastic and you see that, you know, people who are sifting through it, and it is not OK. Like this, it's just like everything is wrong about the scene. And then you have those, you know, big birds and forgetting the species name right now. A storks, the frigatebirds, they're the huge one or the albatross. I'm just guessing. Um, there's a huge birds that like to hang out and filth. Yeah, I know it depends where you are. Like in Florida, the vultures come and even bald eagles will come. Oh, bald eagles like trash. Yeah, they will, yeah, they will come. I don't know, seagulls, obviously, but yeah, all kinds of big birds will come. huh. Well, I think the place sounds like, um, OK, yeah. Uh, Dandora, it sounds like something out of Star Wars, you know. Yeah, and what got me that, you know, I'm, I don't know the quantity I've asked, but I haven't received a good response in terms of like, how much, how much methane is being leaked here. And then, you know, it's just kind of like, why isn't this, you know, what can't we just go from waste to heat with this location, you know, a waste to energy. It just seems like such a waste in many ways, right? Yeah, it just really. You know, brought home, it brings home everything, investment systems in terms of, you know, what people can, you know, is there a recycling system in place like a true recycling system, a waste sorting system, political will, health, like everything comes together and it's really illustrated there in terms of our failings as, as a human species.

 It sparked for me a will to make some personal changes, but also keep working on the systemic changes as well, because that kind. Kind of system should not exist. It is criminal, essentially, for the people who are living there, and for every, you know, I guess for the city of Nairobi, whose waste ends up there, and for all of humanity, because we're all participating in this system of fast fashion and textile waste and plastic use and all of it. I got to a point where I could no longer finish the tour because I was just too much, too much to take in. Yeah, I can only imagine. I went to Kenya or to Ghana two years ago. And I watched some videos before I went that showed similar things. They have a landfill on water that people are sifting because they're looking for what can they make out of this. So they're going through everything, pulling out different types of things. Some are looking for a wire, some are looking for metal, some are looking for whatever. So it creates this really interesting subculture. Um, and then they have their own shanty towns around that. And so, and then those, I mean, what really got me was the mountains of these bags of plastic that you see them and you're like, what's that? Is that some sort of housing? And you're like, no, that's just a giant bag of plastic, hundreds of them. Yeah. And we can't actually recycle the plastic, you know, like, there are some innovations around, actually, there's a great innovation in Kenya around turning some of the, I guess the harder plastic, especially like from tires into durable bricks, like building materials like that could replace concrete. 

However, Um, most of that, you just, you just cannot, you know, we just need to stop with it and use another material. Um, absolutely. Yeah. But let's hope that we have solutions on the way and financing for them and appreciate you putting in the work to do all of that. We mentioned earlier, you are a newish mom and um, how has that changed or added to your passion for this work? I think it just brings home the concept of intergenerational equity in a real way. So one of the things, you know, the F of the surf framework SURF that I mentioned earlier, stands for Future generations, future orientation, and for me, that's a core part of what distinguishes sustainability from. Other concepts and I try to bring that to the work and I have, you know, for a long time. But I think now I have a more concrete understanding of what that means in terms of, you know, a life to take care of in front of me. And so I think it's, um, it just provides more motivation to do the work. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And you opened my eyes to a lot of things and I appreciate that. But we are running out of time. Is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you would like to mention? No, this has been great. Thank you, Laura. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much and thanks for joining so late in the evening for you. So last question is, where can people get in touch with you? So LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. Um, I also have a website, Marilyn Waite.com, and I look forward to hearing from folks. Awesome. Well, thank you again and enjoy your evening and weekend. Thank you. You too. And that's our show. Thank you, Marilyn, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. See you, everybody. Bye.