Clothing Swaps, Developing a Startup, and Smash Bros with Samantha Cerwin

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Samantha Cerwin, Co-founder & CEO at BeReworn about Clothing Swaps, Developing a Startup, and Smash Bros.   Read her full bio below.

Help us continue to create great content! If you’d like to sponsor a future episode hit the support podcast button or visit www.environmentalprofessionalsradio.com/sponsor-form 

Showtimes: 
1:37 - Nic & Laura talk kicking down doors
9:08 - Interview with Sam Cerwin Starts
15:11  - Clothing Swaps 
20:38 - Stigma on Reusing Clothes
35:11 - Super Smash Bros 

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Samantha Cerwin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/samskcerwin/

Guest Bio: 
Samantha Cerwin was born and raised in Mexico and moved to the U.S. in 2021. While struggling to find sustainable clothing options as a young professional, she began swapping clothes through in person events and quickly realized there was a gap in the market for managing and centralizing these events. This insight led her to co-found BeReworn with Lukasz Siatka. She is passionate about community, sustainability, and bringing accessible products to market!

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nick and Laura. On today's episode, Nick and I talk about kicking down doors. We talked to Sam Cerwin about clothing swaps, developing a startup, and Smash Bros. And finally, your weekly serotonin slash dopamine boost is something you have to look up, the desert rain frog. And I mean, you really have to look it up. Yeah. They have transparent skin on their underside and no, they don't have a tadpole stage, but the reason you have to look them up is for their adorable little squeak. And we listened to it for like 30 minutes. Like an unreasonably long time, yeah, it's too cute. So I think that. 

All right, go check it out and let's hit that music. 

FAEP's 2025 annual conference will occur at the Hilton Saint Petersburg Bayfront Hotel from March 12th to 14th in Saint Petersburg, Florida. FAEP is partnering with NAEP to host an advanced NEPA workshop on March 12th that will focus on the changes in the upcoming administration and is hosted by me. Uh. We're also bringing the EPR podcast to town to host a live event on the 14th. Learn more at www.AE-FL.org. 

Let's get to our segment. Are you sure? Yeah, let's get to our segment. 

Yeah, I saw that you were a model in general, and I was like, I need to ask you about this because I saw that on your Instagram. And I was like, Wait, what? What are you doing, Laura? I don't know. I ask myself that while it's happening. This is, you know, you, um, grow up with a certain self persona and then the people around you have a persona that they have made up for you. And, you know, as I've done a lot of things in my life and tried new things, and now I'm just at a point where I'm trying whatever I can, you know, whatever door I feel like I want to smash it down, I'm just going to do it and you know. The first opportunity I had was like a charity thing a couple of years ago in Syracuse, and I was like, yeah, why not? You know? And so that wasn't anything. And, and then it, I didn't find that to really be much because it was, it was a charity thing that everyone was doing, you know, there was zero qualifications, nobody was, so it wasn't like, I don't know, it didn't feel like an honor, you know, something like that. Yeah, yeah. And then I did, I hired a stylist for my film fest. I'm like, OK, I'm hosting a film fest in New York City as the festival director, have to stand in front of the audience and present films and so I hired a stylist.

I'm in New York, so that was part of the whole New York rebrand and um the stylist then said, I think we need to do a photo shoot and I was like, what? And even then, even then, I was like, oh, she probably just wants to, you know, feel like she gave me more value for my money. Right? Then she asked me back a second time, and I was like, What? And I'm still telling myself, do you want me to pay her this time? Like, what is, what's the angle? Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Then I was invited by a different stylist. We did a, a stylist fashion show event in Atlanta a couple months ago, and a different stylist emailed me and said, Hey, I want you to be in my new brand board thing. So she dressed me up and people took photos and I walked out onto the stage and nobody laughed. Uh, except for you now. I know. The whole time I'm thinking like, someone's gonna be like, look at that, she's not a model. Who said she could be here? And that's how I feel in all these spaces. Who said you could run a film fest? Who said you could have a podcast? So, if anything, every time I do this, it's just my message to everyone else, do whatever you want. I know. That's totally accurate. And it's not quite the same as like, you know, like being on stage at a New York Comedy Festival, it's kind of the same, I guess, it's close. And I just remember being on stage telling jokes, people laughing, and yeah, you want people to laugh in that situation too, totally different, the opposite. It's like it's like people are laughing at what I'm saying, and it was weird. It was kind of like, oh, I'm not, you know, because I saw a lot of bad comedy when I was there. It was interesting. It was it was a festival, a sketch comedy festival. And some of it was amazing, some of it was good, some of it was OK, and yeah, but it was just kind of a surreal moment like I was like, oh, I'm actually like for real, I can say for real that I am a funny person, and maybe I'm not the funniest person. See, I'm still doing a little like, well, yeah, and isn't it OK to do that like for like. Why do we wait for people to give us permission for these things? I mean, you need the permission to, for someone to be a heart surgeon, but we don't have to get permission to try different types of things like that. So, and it isn't heart surgery. I'm walking on a stage and making a couple of turns in an outfit someone else put on me, like, but it's still very vulnerable to go out there and do that in front of people. Yeah, and people won't have a, that's how I get told all the time, right? It's like, oh, I could never do that. 

And it's like, you know, oh I could never tell a joke. I can never bomb in front of people, and it's like, OK, well then don't do that, do something else that you want to do that is you are comfortable with. It doesn't have to be like provocative or wild. It can just be, I wanna be the best in the shadows person of all time, or whatever it is, you know, the greatest expert. Um, it doesn't have to be Fashion Week, but it also, don't, don't, don't be shy, you know. Right. Yeah, so I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun. Then I have more pictures from my portfolio, which is cool. And, you know, all weird things I never, my younger self is like, who are you? What do you think you're doing? But these people don't know my younger self. They're just like, you're just another person and it's really interesting to walk into a different space of people who see me as a completely different version. Than the people who know me like growing up. Yeah, I mean, gosh, that's so true. I mean, I just think about like finding your voice, you talk about that all the time. In a lot of ways, your career will help you define that, whether you want it to or not, and it will happen, right? And it's just really funny to think about my high school self. I tell people all the time I was pretty shy, and that's just very confusing. And I'm like, I, well, I was, I, I got over it. I'm not shy anymore. I'm just not. And that's just, I've never been afraid to talk to people, but I never really thought that. I could use that to do something, and now I know I can. So, yeah, it's really cool to see where you come from, right? Because you have all that insecurity, but people that just meet you now don't have any of it. They have no concept for what you were like when you were young. Right. 

And I think, you know, persons watching you seeing what you're doing, like, I don't know that they realize that you, you aren't secure. I think a lot of people think that. Yeah. Oh, Laura, so confident. How she do all this stuff like, trust me, there's not with without some anxiety or what am I doing or second guessing or whatever. Um, and there's a lot of things I still haven't done. But I do, I, when I hear the thoughts that say like, what are you doing? Why are you here? I just shut them up, you know. Yeah, because I, I mean, I mean, there's so many countless examples that I'm sure everybody has of things that you find yourself in a position where you're like, how did I get here? It's crazy that I'm here. And you know, it can be big or small, but like it's just you think about like where you were 5 years ago. That's a much better exercise than where you're gonna be in 5 years, cause like, you just would have no idea. You know, I mean, we've got an EP that's moving from Oregon to Florida. I mean, OK, that's a huge shift, right? Huge shift. 

And what's going to happen in Florida, who knows? But it's cool that that's a new, new experience, new chapter, and then, you know, we'll we'll have to check in on her in a few years and see how it goes, you know, and she'll have stories to tell. That's just kind of the way it is. Right? And I don't, I don't think that a lot of people. At any age, I think our brains are meant to help us be everywhere but here, but also I don't want to say they keep us in the now because they do not, um, for most people. But at the same time, they don't really let us understand that the future is going to be different and it can be different. It's OK for to be different, you know. Yeah, different isn't bad. I like to think we've probably talked about this before, like life is like chapters in a book, you know. And like what happens at the end of the book is very different than where it is when it starts and it's just the truth it's the same way with life, you know. Yeah, exactly. I decided I was having a New York chapter and I was going to do New York experiences and it started with the stylist and look where it led, you know, I know, I know, I know. I can't believe we're talking to a celebrity here is what I feel like. Ah yeah. I know, I can't help myself. It was right there. All right, well, at that point, let's turn it off of ourselves and get to our guest. Sounds good. 

Welcome back to EPR. 

Today we have Sam Cerwin. She is the co-founder and CEO of Be Re Warn, a sustainable fashion company focused on clothing swaps and upcycling events. Welcome, Sam. Hi there. I'm super excited to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. Awesome, we are super excited and it will have already passed, but today is part of Fashion Week in New York City, so it's great timing for this conversation. So I'm excited to learn more about your company and how you got started in it. So I think before we go anywhere, why don't you tell us about what Bre Warn does? Yes, so we want to be the main platform for all the sustainable fashion events, or as we are growing right now, it will be more towards sustainability events in general. I started doing this because fashion is one of my biggest passion since I was a kid and eventually growing up and getting sustainability just made sense to put it all together. That's great. And where are you from? Because I, I hear an accent. Yes. So I am born and raised in Mexico, um, very close to the border, a couple hours from Texas. So yeah, moved here to the US in 2021. 0, very cool. Yeah, and um you have a background in tech and marketing. So how did you go about making that pivot? So I think all my previous experience in jobs having always been in like startups, especially like on the early stages, like very small teams, marketing and product is normally where like I stay there. Research bar is one of my favorite things to do. So when it was time to do the customer discovery for my own product, it was, I was like, oh my God, this is my thing. That's great. So this is your first time running a company. So what have you learned so far? What's your favorite thing about it? Oh my God. Yeah, yeah, let's play over sharing. Um, I didn't say what's your favorite thing about it. 

We could talk about that later too. Yeah, I mean, I think the most important thing that I have learned is sleeping. It is necessary. I, I tried to like skip it the whole past year just because I felt like I could get so much done if I sleep less, but that was a complete lie. But yeah, I think my favorite part is to build around what people want, just to like to have the ability like to talk to users, make sure that we're building something that brings a value to the community or that someone is Actually going to use. For me, I think after COVID, everyone got more shy. Introverts became way more introverted. Some extroverts became like a mix of introverted and extroverted. Someone like started to just, people started to get like this social anxiety. So going back to the real world, it's been overwhelming for the majority of us. So when I was going to these events, I realized it was easier for me to make friends or get involved with people when there was a shared interest. It was easier for me to break the ice. Yeah. So when I started to ask people around, they were like, oh my gosh, yeah, for me too. So I tried to go to more events like this either workshops or swaps, and I couldn't find one place where I could find them all. Everyone was like, oh well, you have to wait for the, like a flyer or maybe ask this person, maybe ask that person. And from the tech point of view, I was like, this can be fixed. Um, so that's how I started with AD be everyone, and that's how we're here. Awesome, great. And how did you meet your co-founder or did you guys already know each other? How did that happen? Yeah, you know, this is very interesting because I, so I'm non-technical, he's the technical one. His name is Lucas. We met through the YC site. And just like meeting people, meeting a co-founder, like it's difficult to just to like, oh let me trust you, so we just go and build a company together for real, you know, like there's not a time frame like after how long can you trust this person to get in business with? 

Right. So I thought was that like, uh, I guess we'll try and like what was like let's just do it. Yeah, especially because people in there, they're like normally you and being remote the majority of the time. So we got a couple calls and he had a background in just in startups as well for the past 15 years, but he had experience like putting events together too, like hackathons and other type of things, but same industry. So we connected, we started working together, and then I don't know, I guess I was lucky and we're good. That's great. So where are you, you're seeing the trends happening now that you're kind of more involved in it and you've got these communities going across the country. So I think something that's going right now is, first of all, like sustainable fashion is becoming a buzzword because of the what the companies are doing. Now rents, huge rents are like creating their own marketplaces just to feel like they're part of the sustainability aspect of it or like movement. So that's making the market just to be too too crowded for like the small, real sustainable brands and designers. Also because there's just so many marketplaces and they're so crowded, it's harder for users just to find what they're actually looking for. And when you go to the thrift store, which is more in a person type of experience, the way they manage clothes, sometimes it feels too overwhelming and time consuming for people to like they're looking for a specific thing, right? So we fear if people are going to clothing shops to find more accessible ways and cheaper ways to get clothing. 

We could make a preview of this, the inventory and be more show what sizes people are bringing to the events so they can understand and like choose the event that fits them best. Because sometimes what happens with clothing swaps is you will bring clothes, but you won't find your size, and someone else already took your clothes. And you're not going to go and ask the other person like, hey, I didn't find something, so can you give me my things back? Like, you know. So that's why we're trying to like sold with the product as well. OK, awesome. So for the events that you have, just walk us through like how that happens. Let's say, you know, I'm in New York City, it's Fashion Week, maybe I was like, oh, it'd be fun to have a swap this week or something, or maybe the week after people had their runway clothes and now they're ready to ditch them or something, right? Yeah, so we have two interfaces. If you're a user looking for events, you can see what's in your area. But if you are the person hosting the event, we give you the management part of it so you can see who's coming. If you need volunteers, you can open a volunteer form. You're gonna be able to manage your data like the demographics or your audience as well and just to keep control of your inventory. Because another problem is the person that hosts these events is the one that needs to take care of all the leftover clothing. So we're just trying to simplify the event management part, but also like define events part of the equation as well. Eventually, like later on the product, people will be able to see like their environmental impact based on the amount of clothes or events they go to, because I feel sometimes people understand they're being part of the change, but like they don't actually know what the that represents. Right. So I think the educational aspect is very important. 

Sorry. No, no, no, no, I just, I was just saying, so you, you help quantify that for people when they host the events, that's what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we want to start like how many clothes had been swapped by event either like by user and to the host in general, how many pieces of clothing there was there because sometimes since they don't use, if they do it manually, it's just impossible to keep a hold on them when people are just at the event. Right. And so I mean, like there's a lot of community engagement, right? And that sounds like something that's, it's important to what you're doing. And you know, we have a lot of listeners who do a lot of work with communities as well. How do you make what you're doing resonate with people? How do you bring them in? Like, what are the ways that you kind of get that engagement going? So it's not just, you know, you show up because no one wants an event where you show up and there's like two people. So how do you get people to show up? Yeah, you know, I think right now from the hosting side, there's people that already has a community and they bring the community to the product, but there's also people who are going to the events and at some point they decide to host for the first time. When that happens, we always have this link on the site and in our Instagram page, where they can just like book a call with us. It's completely free, which is like share tips. We also have a guide for like who's your first swap or workshop or something similar. 

It started with the idea of sustainable fashion, but right now, we are transitioning because users starting to reach out and saying, hey, we're just not swapping clothes, we're swapping books, we're swapping furniture, we're all these things, so we want for them to be able to use the product as well. OK, so how do you find those communities then? So, are you like, literally scouring for people to host events or do they mostly come to you? So I'm a fan of Reddit. I think that's been a huge tool for us. And I think just word of mouth, that's like worked very good for us. Someone will tell someone and then the other person comes and, I don't know, it just goes in around, but sometimes if I see like a group of swap or something that grows on my feet, I will reach out to them as well. Nice. So, so are you using like social media? Definitely like nonstop. So you can like design, like, what are you're like, OK, I need to reach out, I need to post, even setting up like a marketing plan for you, how do you do that? And what do you do? Yeah, so last year, there were 3 of us, so at some point it was distribution of like things to do. Now that we're 2, we are lucky because we just opened our internship program. So we have Angie on board and she's helping us too, but. I will say Instagram is our biggest community like platform right now is the strongest one. It's where like a lot of people find out about us also like panels sometimes we will be on podcasts or things like that and people will reach out and say, hey, I learned about you over there. In terms of marketing, we try to use a lot of the platform data just to understand who our audience is and talk to the same audience. 

So right now, people in the platform are from 20-year-old to 36. That's the majority that we have. And what we see that's growing a lot is Gen Z. They are the ones who are like passionate about sustainability. Yeah, so you're using basically your background in tech to help you. Market the way that you want. So, is there like moments of joy you get from that where you're kind of like, you know, my tech background actually helps me quite a bit in this regard. How are you using that tech background, I guess? Is it just in in marketing or is there other ways that it kind of pops joy for you? Yeah, I think on the product side, definitely. So I learned that sometimes we have an idea like it can sound so good in our mind. And that's why she always says make something people want. Like my first idea was something that no one wanted, and when I heard about it, I was like, oh my goodness, I put like all this work into it and no one's going to use it. So I think just to like be able to get the insights we need from the users, that's the most important thing, but also just the product, how can you make it fast, accessible and affordable. Yeah, and when we were talking about like the form you have, you have, you talked about the idea of shaming with sustainability, and it kind of ties into like some of what we're talking about before, you know, like you're saying Gen Z is really coming on, really focused on sustainability, but when it comes to fashion and wearing something that someone else has already worn. There's almost a stigma on that. So how do you shift that conversation? Is Gen Z just more open to the idea, so you're kind of hoping over time it's fine, or do you need to kind of push the narrative yourself as well? You see, I think it's, of course, like a huge part of this is the passion for sustainability, but also the economy plays a huge role in all this. 

Like when I was going to these events, it was also because I was a young professional. I couldn't just afford like office clothes all the time. You know, and like going to the thrift store and paying by item is getting more expensive too. Marketplaces, like after all the fees and stuff, is sometimes it's just not affordable anymore. So, as right now, how the job market is and the economy is, a lot of young professionals don't have fair access to clothing. And I think sometimes clothing can sound something like superficial, something that it's not necessary, but I see everyone like walking the street wearing something. It is a necessity. Uh-huh. The necessity, it's also an express self-expression, you know, you can. Look at someone and have an idea of what they are they creative? Are they bossy? Are they, you know, trendy? And that's not a judgment call that that people do that on purpose. I know what kids in school are goth like it's not it's not a secret. Um, you can kind of guess what their playlist is on Spotify from that, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Being here in New York City now, I see so much more obviously than I did in Syracuse. And um and there's a lot more, you know, being part of the stylist fashion show, there is a lot more repurposing of, so maybe not just swapping clothes and wearing someone else's, but there is a lot of repurposing happening. Yes, yeah, I mean, I think sometimes I see moms coming to these events, getting clothes for the whole family, not just even just one person anymore. And also it's great.

I think someone else was doing fabric swaps. I got a chance to be one of those. So it's a lot of designers who do upcycling and they just like swap fabrics or like clothing to make something completely new. And I mean, I think that's what is amazing about circular economies. So yeah, and about the shaming, I, I mean guilty. I've been there. I'm not gonna lie, I, I. Like I'm learning just to be more, to try to be more positive about it instead of just go and say like, oh my God, why are you doing that? But yeah, I mean, of course, if someone comes to me and says like, oh my God, look what I just got from Chien, I was just like, oh my goodness, don't even show it to me, like things like that. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a problem because then there's such a large amount of people who's just like on the fence. That they want to try something sustainable, but they are scared to ask because they know people will go after them from the wrong questions. And I think that's something that the whole community needs to work on. Because for more people to move towards a more sustainable lifestyle, it has to be this approachable, accessible community to reach out to. Absolutely. I just drop this disposable lifestyle too. Oh, I wore this outfit once and I can never wear it again. That's how I feel. I'm like, OK, I just wore that two weeks ago. Can I wear it again? Like, I rewear my clothes so much, but I, I feel like maybe, or do people notice, you know. And then, like I said, accessibility and the cost of clothing, like some people, I know there was one girl that had a conference, leadership conference I used to go to, she would purposely wear the same dress like 4 days in a row as part of a campaign that was to kind of I don't know how they framed it, but it was basically just to say like it's OK to wear your clothing more than once, and like a solidarity thing with people who can't afford to buy enough clothes to be wearing something different and fashionable every day, not to mention having to launder all. of the stuff and dry clean and everything else that goes into like buying high fashion type of things that aren't just made out of cotton. Absolutely. 

And the reality is also like, sometimes, yes, you want to support sustainable brands, but sometimes they're out of reach. You can't afford them either. So, yeah, it's a tough, tricky situation. No, I know, so it's, it's nice that there's a place for people to kind of find that that balance cause, gosh, I just remember being a kid myself, like, you know, when I was growing up, you talk about thrift stores, that was kind of like what I had to do. And yeah, it's overwhelming, it can be really embarrassing. I remember being like, In middle school, I basically was wearing the same kind of thing over and over again, not necessarily the exact same, but it was like I had those swish pants, you know, I was really into swish pants and not because I wanted to, because that's just what I had, right? Thrift stores in a way, you know, saved me a little bit, but it still isn't easy. It wasn't fun, it wasn't like, you have to like kind of pretend like, yeah, I want holes in my shirt. I'm tough, you're like, no, you're not, I could see you, you know, so I appreciate that, that you're doing this. It's a really, really cool thing. Yeah, I like the idea of knowing what you're going to get before you go, more like some sort of shopping experience because I think that's the other hard part of the thrift stores, it's, you know, you might find something, you might not. Yeah, and it also depends on the time and patience you have. Because not everyone is willing to spend like even an hour just to make sure that they find what something. Yeah, exactly. 

That's so true and uh. Somewhere there's a picture of my prom suit which did not fit me and was bright blue, but did cost like $10 or no, it was like $25 I think. So my prom desk was $10. Yeah, it was pretty funny, so I'm loving this. So Sam, other aspects of sustainable fashion, you guys touch on the swaps and stuff, do you do anything with like sourcing sustainable clothing or anything like that? Right now, not yet, but in the future, we want to give a space for sustainable like brands to come to a picture. Sometimes what we have realized is it is a small designer or a small brand, they don't have the budget to market as they wish, and sometimes, I mean, it's already tough to be a sustainable brand, and now like not having access to the route audience is more challenging. So we just want to bring, like, create a space for like people in the same community to take a look at them and get to know them and just know about their work. Another challenge that we're facing right now is we have more, sometimes the events that we have in the platform they're just not enough. Yeah. Right. Like sometimes there are people from different cities, like we don't know how we and then in 11 different cities last year. So sometimes if there's not an event in your city, there's nothing you can do, right? You have to wait because not everyone is willing to put the effort into planning. It's a lot of work. So this year we're exploring to make um type of like a one on one matching where you can see like locally what it's like, what people have, and you can use a drop of coin. In swap.

 Because sometimes people also say like we want to swap locally, but I don't want to actually meet the other person. Like I, I don't want to do the small talk or do the work to like figure together so that's why we're using the drop off points. Exactly. And I get it. Like if I just see someone that I don't know and like I'm just holding my sweater and I want to give it to you, but I have to say something, you know, like it makes sense. Yeah, that's true, you can take it, yeah. That's just like ordering from Grubhub. Do you want me to deliver it to your door or do you want me to leave it on the doorstep? Exactly. No, exactly. That's what we're saying like we want you to pick up clothes like these clothes, just like you're picking up food. Like that's what it is. But yeah, I mean, I feel also like I think women, at least like on our platform is more willing to like swap clothes and reuse clothes, go through these things and just like a 5% of the user base are men. And sometimes like we will see guys like direct events, and I think they feel overwhelmed. So I can imagine that, yeah. Yeah, so I think there's, I don't have the answer to that yet, but I think, I don't know if it's because they see a lot of girls and it feels more intimidating, or I don't know if it's the process of swapping clothes. And you know, sometimes it's hard too because if you're a guy and you're coming to an event of 25 people and 20 of those are women. Well, like, then you don't have as many options as everyone else. Yeah, yeah, so you have like a tool swap or a sports swap, maybe sports equipment you can trade footballs, that's funny. Or Nintendo games, like, you know what I mean, you can have a kind of swap. 

Yeah, I mean, I saw one here in Michigan, they were swapping like hockey stuff, and yeah, there was a bunch of just like hits my you like swapping their stuff. And I mean, honestly, kids, they grow up so fast that it's so much leftover clothing for kids because they can use it again. Yeah, oh my gosh. I was literally just having this conversation about baseball bats, right? So I have a friend of mine, I've basically got a couple of nephews and they're 9 and 7. Pretty much, and they're playing like baseball, like they're learning how to play the tee ball, now they're playing baseball, and a baseball bat is like $300. They start at $300 but you know somebody, $2500 worth of baseball bats. So my friend, a friend of a friend, right? And it's just like, why are you spending all this money on a bat that is going to be obsolete in a year or even less than that because the kids keep growing. It's a real, real challenge. It really is. It is, and especially because I sometimes people go and donate clothes and they think they're doing the right thing, but if you actually don't know what the process are behind those organizations, it's pretty much like going to the same place. And I feel like that's where it gets tricky as well, like, no, everyone takes the time to actually like do a background check on where are they dropping off their clothes. Yeah, I've never thought about that, even one time. Now I'm, I'm wondering that, what should I be looking out for if I am trying to do research for where I should be dropping clothes off. Like I didn't even think that I could. I needed to do that. Yeah, I mean, because I grew up in Mexico, like we have this thing with your mom will save all your clothes and we give them to your cousins and like your cousins will give them to their cousins. So I think sometimes, yeah, like that's a good way to go just to keep it in the family, but in my country, it took longer to embrace sustainable fashion. Like we're still on the rise of that because there is a huge stigma there, like we're like, oh, is it actually cool to wear like second fashion clothing? Well, I feel like, I mean, in Europe right now, this is the most normal thing to do, right?

 So I think just globally, like every country has a different point of view and a different stage on the sustainability like market or yeah. That's what I have to hear. All right, so the first time running a company and how long have you been going so far? Officially, we launched the first MVP a year ago and I started with the research part in this, at the end of the year of 2023. So I think it's been a year and 6 months or something like that. OK, awesome, my God. What, what advice do you have for someone else who may be thinking, especially right now, there's with so little job options, anybody who might be entrepreneurial in any way or want to just be doing something while they're job searching, starting a company could be an option. So what kind of advice do you have from your perspective at this point? I will say just like customer discovery is always the first step. doesn't matter what idea you think you have, just go and ask people if someone will actually use it and pay for it. Otherwise you're gonna end up with a hobby. Yeah, yeah. You need someone technical on the team. It's just, I don't wanna say impossible because there's a lot of tools right now to like do apps without coding, but if what you want is to scale, you need a technical co-founder, just, there's no workaround. Yeah, and those too. Have you found like having an app is also really important for what you're doing? Is that a requirement or is it just kind of something that if it fits, it fits? That's so funny because we went through it last year. We thought that was what we needed to do right away.

 So we went to spend a long time building the app when people was asking for extra features on the site. Right. So, I think an app will be nice, but if right now there's just so many ways to make the mobile experience better with that like just from Safari or like Google Chrome, so I think don't go the app route right away because then you have to wait on the app store and all these things and I think there's easier and faster way to test a product. Wow, OK, so. Yeah, what is that process like for an app? I'm sorry, now I'm gonna nerd out on you. Uh, and if you think I'm not gonna talk video games, uh, ha ha ha, that's also coming, so fair warning. But what are the challenges with trying to make an app because like for me, it's just seems like, I don't know, everybody you talk to is like, oh yeah, you gotta make an app. You gotta make an app, you gotta make an app. But how do you make a good app and how do you update it and how do you keep it going? Because that seems like a huge challenge. Yeah, I mean, definitely like the time to build an app is longer than just like go and test it with a website that is responsive for sure, but especially like retention, it's super hard right now. Like consumers won't keep and use your app if it's not something that they need on their daily life, right? So either your product is something that people need to live in or your product is a one time thing. And if it's a one time thing, they won't get an app for that. That makes sense so. Yeah. Yeah, and like the same with subscriptions, people now are running away from subscriptions. Everyone's scared of them, so if your business model is tied to that, it's just hard to keep it going. It's hard to make money that way, yeah. You're exactly right, right? When you think about a subscription-based thing too, you're like, well, I have too many, everybody has too many.

 So if I get another one, I have to get rid of one. Which one am I going to get rid of? And that's the game we end up playing. So yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah, and my co-founder always laugh when I say this and my advisor too, but like, it's true, like everyone right now, the world is afraid of commitment and that applies for everything. Like it's so true. It is true. Like when you put a subscription like that, it's like, oh, like cancel any time, yes, but what if I forget, like everyone's scared. Yeah, no, yeah, you're exactly right. But you know, I, I mentioned video games and we saw that you are also a professional Smash player, um, and like I want to know if, do you know what Smash is, first of all? No, I don't. OK, that's what I thought. That's what I thought I did. So, um, for those of us who don't know, enlighten me a little bit about Smash is I need to know who you play, how you play, where you play. Just go on Smash. Yeah, I saw me that says forget your zodiac sign, just tell me who you play with, and I would. But yeah, no, I've been always into video games. I just, when I was a kid, I got my first Nintendo DS and then I got the Wii, and then I, next thing you know, I, I mean, I still play Sims once in a while if I have time in my computer. Like I do know what Sims is, OK. Oh yeah, no, I, I just love either tech stuff or like devices or anything. I, it's my thing. So like, I mean, if you're playing Smash, why Smash? I mean, Smash, it's an awesome game, Smash Brothers and all that, and it's a lot of fun. I am not, I'm always like, I wish I was better because I'm too old to be good at this point, but I was never that great. So I loved it though. It's really fun to buy it for you. I love it. So when I was growing up, a lot of my friends were guys and a lot of my cousins were guys too, and like they was always play and I got into it, and I love Zelda just as a general like character. That's who I play with. And then my brother and I were slipping into Pokemon and like right now I'm wearing like Pikachu socks. So I think it doesn't like, yeah, it doesn't go away. Oh, that's so great. Yeah, that's too funny. 

So Zelda is your main, that's who you're gonna go with every time, or is it somebody else in the game? I think I always like to play with Zelda or if I choose someone else probably will be like me too. Ah yeah, yeah, what a monster. Yeah, I think those two. Yeah, that's very, very cool. So like when you say you play professionally, are you just literally playing professionally or are you just enjoying it a ton? Yeah, I'm just very competitive with my friends. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you, um, because it's, it's a lot of fun. I get a lot of joy out of it, so I love to hear. Yeah, yeah, I know, but yeah, so. It's funny, we usually do a segment on our show called Field Notes where we talk about like guests memorable moments doing their job, and we always encourage listeners to share the hashtag Field Notes to kind of tell us about their stories too. But is there a, a story about like running BB Warren that kind of sticks out to you, that has something memorable, and it doesn't have to be BB Warren, it could just be in your career at all. Just a funny moment, a silly thing that happened that you look back on it and it makes you laugh, or just like, I can't believe that happened, you know what I mean? Probably started this. I was joking like I don't know what I was thinking. Um, I just think, yeah, I mean, when you guys ask me like how long I've been doing this, I'm like, oh my God, like almost 2 years. I don't know. I feel like sometimes I get scared of the silliest things and then when I look back I'm like, why was I, like, why was I so scared? And especially like hosting my own events at the beginning to make user research. It's like when you're a kid and you're having a party, right? You're like, why, no one shows up. Yeah. So it's like the same thing. 

I was going to this hosting my first swap. I was new in Detroit and I was like, so I know no one, but I'm still going to host an event. Like, what can go wrong? Um. But eventually it was good and like a couple of people found out and they got and I made a couple of friends so also like just pitch competitions. I hate them. I, I mean, I hope my advisor won't listen to this, but um like I'm not an introvert, but I'm not an extrovert either. I'm like a mix of those two, and like they come out in different spaces different times. So every time I'm gonna go on stage, I get like this anxiety and my legs are just shaking. And last time I was in one of those, I tripped and I wanted to pretend like nothing happened, but I was like, someone told me there is a video and I'm like, good. And then when I went out of stage, someone told me because of you, I was super careful when I was on the stage. I wanted to see like what I was. Standing and I'm like, great. Good for you. That's gotta be. So you tripped on the way out to give a speech, is that what you're saying? No, it was like his platform and I was just. I don't know what I was going on reverse instead of like walking like a normal person, to be honest with you. I, I don't know. I don't know, but you live to tell. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, and someone asked me, you want the video? I'm like, nah, I'm good, yeah, yeah, I know what falling looks like. I mean, that's really the, the big thing now. If you did that 20 years ago, no one would ever capture it. Now there's a camera on everyone at all times, and so every little thing like that, someone has got, you know, so it makes doing things like this more scary. Yeah, and I, I don't know, like, do you guys listen to your own episodes? I do not. Laura refuses. I, I do, but not always, and yeah, Laura won't, so I've listened to I think one or two of them with my friends in the car. 

They were like, we're gonna listen to the podcast. I'm like, oh please no. I feel the same way, like when someone gives me a video of me talking, I'm like, I'm not gonna play it. Whatever I said, it's out there already, so yeah, yeah, it's over. Yeah, I just feel like when you hear your own voice, it's like uh. Uh, it is true, like it is cringeworthy, but something I like, I like to push through because it's like, you know, it's jeez, you're like, well, that was, please don't ever say that again. It's like reminding myself to be better, you know, like, you can be better than this, and uh you should come on. It's important to listen, to learn to do better. But if you err on the side of taking it to judgment, and then you end up using it against yourself and holding you back from being yourself, or you don't like the way you laugh or whatever, then you end up not being your authentic self, and it can be hurtful to you. So I think if you do it, you have to be in the right state of mind and willing to accept what you see, have a plan for like, no, I'm great, I'm good. Now I'm going to watch it to see how I can make an instead of watching it to judge myself. Right, right. And just hiding your arm is always the, that's the big one for me and you know, one weird, weird trick I learned is if you breathe in, you can't make a noise and so it's like you can't, if you're crying to pause and you don't want to say um, you can just literally breathe in. And that's it. And it's like the weirdest little thing. But anyways, I don't even know why I said that, but it's just kind of like a fun, that's kind of one of those things I learned about watching myself, but that doesn't sound great either. 

I'm gonna say that's another mansplaining from Nick episode. I could feel myself getting terrible there. Um, anyway, this is a good sign that we're getting close to the end of our episode.

So Sam, do you have anything else you'd like to talk about before we leave today? No, I mean, I like Fashion Revolution Week is coming, that's across the world, just invite people to keep hosting events and like to attend to these things. It's important to put the effort, I think, and I feel like when people like sustainability for some, well, I don't want to say for some reason. But like right now people related to the word expensive and like it sounds like it's a lot of work, and I just think it's important for people to understand like starting a sustainable lifestyle or your journey doesn't have to be everything at once. You can start with the little things. You can decide to shop better at this segment that's important for you, or you can start recycling if you haven't, or little things, you know, it doesn't have to be overwhelming. That's pretty much it. 

Yeah. I think, great advice. And finally, where can people get in touch with you? They can go to view reward.com or they can go to our Instagram page. There is a link there either to book a call with me or our email is also there in our link tree. So yeah, any of those too. OK, awesome. Well, thank you again. It's been a fun chat. Thank you, guys, for having me. I appreciate it. Of course. That's our show. Thank you, Sam, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Bye. See you, everybody.