Environmental Executive Orders, Managing Shifts between Administrations, and Sailing with Ted Boling

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Ted Boling, Partner at Perkins Coie LLP about Environmental Executive Orders, Managing Shifts between Administrations, and Sailing.  Read his full bio below.

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Special thanks to our sponsor for this episode Perkins Coie - https://perkinscoie.com/

Showtimes: 
2:29 - Nic and Laura dive into tacking Challenging Work
10:08 -  Interview starts with Ted Boing
18: 50 - CEQ Updates  
32:15- Changes from the new administration 
41:20 - Sailing  

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Ted Boling at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ted-boling-66326811/

Guest Bio:

Ted advises clients on renewable energy and transmission projects, resource development, transportation, and related infrastructure development, building on more than 30 years of high-level public service.

Ted Boling’s experience includes deep involvement in the environmental review and authorization of federal infrastructure projects, environmental mitigation and conservation programs, and leadership of the comprehensive revision of CEQ’s National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) regulations. He served on the White House Council on Environmental Quality (CEQ), in the U.S. Department of the Interior (DOI), and in the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ). 

Ted’s work at CEQ included the development of the National Ocean Policy, CEQ’s climate change guidance, and the use of environmental management systems in environmental impact assessment. Ted advised on the establishment of numerous national monuments, including the first marine national monuments in the United States and the largest marine protected areas in the world. He represented CEQ as a member of the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation, the board of directors of the Udall Foundation, and the U.S. delegation to negotiations under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea on the conservation and sustainable use of marine biological diversity of areas beyond national jurisdiction. He also assisted in briefing three cases before the Supreme Court of the United States.

At DOI, Ted served as a deputy solicitor and counselor to the assistant secretaries for land and minerals management and for fish and wildlife and parks. Ted handled matters involving energy development on the outer continental shelf and the fast-track process for solar and wind energy projects on public lands. 

At DOJ, Ted was a senior trial attorney and litigated significant cases involving NEPA, endangered species, marine mammals, wetland protections, and management of public lands. He was involved in litigation concerning the Northwest Forest Plan, National Forest management decisions, and Federal Transit Administration decisions and U.S. Coast Guard activity in New England.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental enthusiasts, Nick and Laura. On today's episode, Laura and I talk about how to attack challenging work. We catch up with our friend Ted Boling about the most recent environmental executive orders, managing shifts between administrations, and of course, his favorite, sailing. And finally, the eastern emerald Alicia is a sea slug that is solar powered. 

It literally steals chloroplasts from algae and puts them into their guts. It then incorporates the chloroplast genes into their own, allowing it to photosynthesize, which is the loudest thing I've heard in a long time. They're gorgeous. They look really cool, so you have to look them up. And Laura sent me the thing and I was like reading an article about it. So there you go. That means probably everyone else has seen it too. So like, hey, let's all look at this thing we all saw last week. Um, it did say, I mean, the post I saw said that it was the only animal that photos. That's what I heard too, pretty cool. No, but I'm fear the day that someone's like, you know, that was AI, right? I know, I know that that is happening. So, uh, I feel like we ruined a really happy story at the end, so.

 Let's hit that music. 

Today's episode is sponsored by Perkins Coy, a leading international law firm that is known for providing high value strategic solutions and extraordinary client service on matters vital to all their clients' success. With more than 1200 lawyers in offices across the United States and Asia, Perkins CCI provides a full array of legal advice, including on environment, energy, and natural resources. Last year, Chambers USA named Perkins COI the environmental law firm of the year. Check them out at Perkins CoE, that's CO.com. 

And it's coming up quick. The FAEP annual conference is being held at the Hilton Saint Petersburg Bayfront Hotel from March 12th to 14th in Saint Petersburg, Florida. NAP will host an advanced NEPA workshop on March 12th that will focus on changes in the upcoming administration. The very cool EPR podcast will also host an event on the 14th, earlier in the morning. So be there or be square and to learn more at www.AE-FL.org. Now let's get to our segment. But Ted talked about, you know, needing to sharpen your pencils and be attentive to detail and working really hard under adverse conditions, and I thought that was something that you and I both understand and kind of relate to. And so why don't we talk about, like, you know, challenging work and managing it and when you have a lot of scrutiny coming on top of what you're doing and, you know, finding ways to uh Make sure you don't lose it during that process. Yeah, right. 

When you start doing challenging work or challenging yourself really, then you put yourself in positions when you have challenging work. You really live in this uncomfortable space, you know, it's called getting outside of your comfort zone and it's because it's everything you're doing is learning something new. It's always a new problem to solve. So it's this base level of stress that never goes away. Yeah, and it can kind of create this like idea that, you know, it's, it's almost like everything I'm doing, what am I doing anything right? Am I doing things correctly, like, what if I make a mistake, you can hyperfocus on those pretty well because you, you just know that one mistake counts a lot more than other places, right? And so it hurts to do that, right? You know, yeah, well, it comes with obligations, you know, so like you move yourself into a more challenging space or take on. More responsibility, like more responsibility comes up more obligations and obligations to people who have a higher scrutiny on you, which I think is where for the majority of the people you're around, they probably don't really care, but then those people you owe something to contractually or otherwise, like they're watching. Yeah, and it becomes like you have to. Trust and rely on the people that are with you, right? Because you're never alone on those kinds of things and it's easy to forget that. But even like the position that I'm in at Dawson is quite different than when I started, right? It's just there's 26 people that I'm responsible for right now, and that's, I looked that up, I saw that in like my latest review thing, like, that's a lot, you know, and it's like I almost wish I hadn't seen it. I really can't make mistakes, but really, you know, it's like I have to understand what my job is first, right? So mine is really being a facilitator. 

It's a lot of getting the right people in the right places to make the right decisions and it doesn't always work out and when it doesn't, I take the responsibility off of other people to make sure we make things right without, you know, that a whole thing coming down on one person, and if it is going to come down on one person, it's me. Which is a different kind of stress, but to me, and I, I really would love your take on this, to me, like having that challenging work environment is, it makes you be sharp and you know you, you know you have to be on your A game, you have to pay attention to what's happening. You know, we talk a lot about the changes in shifting administrations, and you know, I am all over those things because I need to know. I need to know more than the people I work with. And so I'm like, I'm not saying I'm devouring them. I'm not, but uh, but I'm reading them. I'm reading those orders. To make sure I'm staying up with them too, you know, I'm asking, you know, having Ted on just to ask him questions about it so that I know and can tell other people, you know. That's kind of like Yeah, absolutely, and I think, you know, the whole notion of iron sharpens iron is like, you do surround yourself with other people who challenge you back or you're in entrepreneur space that I'm in, you're with other entrepreneurs who are also learning and growing and problem solving and Like I mentioned also earlier, like I learned how, like the perfect example is like I learned how to ride a horse on a horse that bucked and kicked all the time. 

And so like any tame horse I'm good with. I'm right. So if you start a company from scratch and you bootstrap, like if someone gave you money, you'd be floating, you know, like the harder a challenge is, you're gonna come out of that with so much more skills and resilience. And so, you know. You know, that's one of the silver linings when you're like, oh my God, so we're going to make it through 4 years of this administration and come out on the other side, like, we got some skills and we have some resilience and we have, you know, we're gonna lose some things, but we'll have the skills to get them back. Right, exactly, there's adaptability that's really, really important. And it's kind of like me doing stand-up comedy to get better at public speaking, it's kind of like, this is the hardest public speaking there is. And some of that's a mentality that people have and but you can attack it in different ways, and I think for me, the other part that's really important that maybe we don't talk a lot about is Rest, you know, like, you cannot be on all the time. You can't be going, you know, they call them afterburners and jets, right? So, back to planes again. Um, but it's like there's a reason you don't do that all the time because if you do it all the time, everything breaks down, and then that's the same thing with you. It's like if you just go, so you have to find a way to do it, and if you can't, you don't know if you can, you have to talk to your bosses, talk to your teammates, try to figure out. How is there, because there's always a way, there's always a way to reduce workload and stress, even if you feel like there isn't. 

And if you're, you know, community or doesn't help you do that, that's not the place you want to be. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I really enjoyed talking to Ted and hearing everything that he has to say and it's, like we said, he's very a calming voice because, you know, he knows he's got a history too of seeing different administrations go through different changes and ebbs and flows and never ever want to downplay that some people will be directly impacted. Yeah. You know, and those people may need our help and attention, but the overall picture, we're going to be OK, right? Like, and that's the power of thinking positive. Like, you have to think that until it's not. Otherwise, it's self-imposed disaster, you know, like you fear the worst, you put your thoughts and your focus on the worst, you're going to get it. Yeah, that's, it's a great point too, because even if you have a lot of scrutiny on you and you do make a mistake, it's still not the end of the. world, like 99,000 times out of whatever, you know, it's not, it's not the end of the world. It's just the thing that happened. And honestly, navigating through challenges like that is another skill you learn. We talked about those making decisions is a skill, but so is navigating like mistakes and those are going to happen and you have to give yourself a break for those too. And I think that's, even when you need to be on point and when you can't make mistakes, you still will, right? Like there's only Like what is it? Like, uh, there's like, gosh, I don't know another sports analogy. It's because Marley's here, that's why, um, but like, like a tennis player, right? The tennis player who wins the match, there are so many errors that they make in that game. They just made slightly less than the other person and that's why they won. 

But there's still mistakes, you know, even the best tennis player of all time has made Thousands if not millions, of mistakes, right? And you know, we have a president who's in office who's filed bankruptcy a couple of times. Like, even if like when I start to think about what if all the what ifs for my businesses and things like, what if it just stops? What if it goes away? What if the people stop buying, like, what if we get another COVID? Like what ifs, it's, it is good for me to take. Inventory of those and have like a somewhat of a plan or, you know, that served me well for COVID because I had money in savings, but it doesn't serve me to dwell on them or focus on the outcome of that cause I'm more likely to get that outcome if I just keep staring at it. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's almost sometimes like, yeah, was making the decision is better than doing nothing. It's just, even if it's hard and you don't know which one's right, it's still better than doing nothing. Yeah, so I like to get that stuff out on paper and out of my head and just so I can keep the good stuff in my head, but uh I think we have rambled and I think we, you know, drifted off into a couple of different topics there, but let's talk to Ted. Sounds good. 

Hello and welcome back to EPR. Today we're joined once again by Ted Bolling. This marks his 3rd appearance on the show, and we are really excited to have him back. For those who need a refresher, Ted is a partner at Perkins CoE LLP and formerly served as Associate director for NEPA at the Council on Environmental Quality. 

Hey, welcome, Ted. Hi there. It's great to be back, Nick. Now, of course, you know that the, the real reason we're having you on is just so you can tell us more sailing stories like I promise we'll get to those, but. For those of you who heard the intro, I mentioned the Council on Environmental Quality, and there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of, a lot of things going on right now in regards to CEQ. So we're going to start with section 5 of the Unleashing American Energy Order. What is it and why is it important? All right, well, the unleashing American Energy executive order actually, you know, pairs up with the this uh President Trump's declaration of a national energy emergency, and the unleashing order is actually the more impactful from the standpoint of, of regulations and particularly just, you know, the NEPA regulations. And first and foremost, it declares a policy of the United States to, you know, explore energy. Or encourage energy exploration and production on federal lands, including the outer continental shelf. 

Certainly a focus on traditional or conventional energy supply. It refers to a supply of reliable energy, which, um, you know, paired with an executive order withdrawing or on with regard to, uh, wind power, it seems to be designed to contrast the, you know, variable quality of wind power from with. Considered reliable energy, which is sort of like base load power by natural gas generation. It also directing elimination of electric vehicle mandates. It's, um, it has policy provisions in there about, you know, providing public opportunity for public comment and rigorous peer reviewed scientific analysis, but, uh, it's all, you know, and it's also got a, a sort of funding component to it as well. No federal funding be employed in a manner contrary to the principles outlined. There. And then at section 5, it brings it to bear on CEQ first by rescinding or revoking executive Order 11991, which for those of you who've forgotten the number, that is the President Carter executive order that was designed to bring order to NEPA practice back in 1977 by directing CEQ to create regulations that applied to all federal agencies and would be binding on all federal agencies. So by revoking that executive order and then directing CEQ to propose rescinding its regulations, um, what we're back to is the sort of the Nixon Ford administration regime of CEQ issuing guidance to federal agencies, but agencies more or less, you know, they're sort of in a choose. own adventure approach to Nipah. And remember now that Chevron has overruled by the Loerbright case, we're back to, I mean, judges can interpret the law, interpret the statute, including NEPA as amended by the Fiscal Responsibility Act, based on their own best reading of the statute. And they could disagree with the reading of the statute in Regulations, but what we're going to go into now is a period of agencies updating their NEPA regulations, um, to reflect the Fiscal Responsibility Act, to reflect the executive orders of the Trump administration, and it's gonna be pick your favorite agency, all those NEPA procedures that you know. 

They're based on the 1978 CET regulations because they were never updated to respond to the 2020, 2022, or 2024 amendments to the regulations. Those are all gonna go through an update. And given how fast we think, you know, how fast the Trump administration has moved, I would expect that this whole process is going to move pretty quickly. OK. So, you know, I mean, gosh, obviously a lot to even just sift through there. We can unpack that for the next hour. Yeah, right. So like, like from, you're talking about like judges and courts kind of deciding on how this will go. Is there like a still like a standard that we're talking about, you know, like we've got past precedents, you know, on a lot of these things. So if we don't have the guidance, is there a sense that judges are going to look to other cases, or is it kind of all brand new and we're all gonna see it as we're gonna have to sift through this on a case by case basis? Well, all right, so we've got an extensive body of law based largely on the CEQ regulations and some basic principles of NEA practice. I mean certainly Supreme Court precedent, and I would say, will say take heart, the Supreme Court has said in many cases, in starting with Sierra Club the Andrus, that CEQ's interpretation of NEPA is entitled to substantial deference. Um, Sierra Club the Andras preceded, you know, Chevron. There are certain basic principles that, that run from case law that, frankly, the 1978 regulations were just, you know, the CEQ's attempt to just put them in regulation form. But they were based on a well-established case law. So we'll have to see what CEQ is. Issues in the way of guidance. And by this executive order, CEQ should be issuing guidance to the agencies by February 19th. So be watching for that. Um, but if it's going to be durable guidance, I mean, entitled to skid more deference, you know, it, it ought to basically proceed by its own logic. 

The reason why CEQ's interpretations are entitled to substantial deference. It's because it just makes sense. It works part of this, this body of, of law there. That doesn't mean that the administration might, you know, push the envelopes in some ways. Um, I mean, so we'll, we'll just have to see how that, how that goes. I mean, but the emphasis on prioritizing efficiency and certainty in the NEPA process. You know, frankly, there's a lot of, there's a lot there that's similar to what President Carter was trying to do in 1977. You know, so that's, that's a sort of a, a timeless theme. And in fact, my predecessor, one of my various, various positions at CEQ was deputy general counsel to Dinah Bear, and then I was later her success. as general counsel, and she always said, you know, every presidential administration has tried to make NEPA work more efficiently. And so there's a timeless theme there. Yeah, yes. Well, so that, that's kind of what I wanna, OK, so Carter says, you know, hey, everybody doing everything their own way is tough. 

We need to kind of streamline this. Let's all do it the same way. And then someone saying, Everyone's doing it the same way, but it's taking too long. We need everyone to do it differently. It's really interesting how different that is with the same goal in mind. Um, so yeah, that's a good point, Nick. I think that, I mean, if you look at subsection C of the executive order, Section 5, it say, you know, it's CEQ issues its guidance and then CEQ is directed to convene. A working group to coordinate the revision of agency level implementing regulations for consistency. Now the current CEQ regulations require CEQ to review proposed changes to NEBA procedures for conformity with NEBA. Here it's not just, you know, statutory interpretation, but it's also for consistency amongst the agencies. So there's a consistent approach. And of course, you know, NEA is an interagency exercise. It's everyone with jurisdiction or special expertise. And so, you know, necessarily there needs to be some degree of conformity if consistency amongst the various agencies, and that's gonna be CEQ's role is to sort of Make sure that all these pots that are boiling, they're served up in a way that it's a coherent dish. I mean, there, the dynamic tension in this kind of exercise is to marry up the Nipah process with agency decision making processes that are based on various. Statutes, but to make sure that at least the environmental review process has a sort of transferability, coherence, if you will, so that we're not talking to each other or past each other with using very different language, that sort of thing.

Right, right. So you mentioned that CEQ is still going to be involved, but I have a more dialed back question is where is the website for CEQ? And um, you know, for someone researching and looking, it appears to be that CEQ is no longer there, but they are still there, and they are going to still play a role. Yep, yep, they're still there. I mean, exactly who's there is getting sorted out and certainly the agency exists. It doesn't just exist by virtue of a website. It's typical that during transitions that, you know, websites are taken down and reloaded. Fortunately, Nipa.gov, the basic resource, is still out there, at least last time I checked, uh, which is, I think this morning, I use NiA.gov every day and, and frankly, that's why we put it on the Department of Energy server. So that it would not be subject to the sort of need to reload every time we've got a a new presidential administration. It's a basic resource for practitioners and designed as such. Yeah. That's good. I think that's good for listeners to know because, you know, it is alarming when you go to look for something that was there one day and the next day, it's just not, especially when the goal is to unravel a bunch of stuff, and I think a lot of it is just to shake people up a little bit, but um, but thank you for providing that and You mentioned you've been through several presidential transitions. Clearly Obama to Trump the first time was significant. 

So what in your mind made that so different and how is this different than that last time? Well, yeah, so this is um. So I was acting chair of CEQ actually from Bush to Obama, that transition lasted, I think I was acting chair for maybe 24 hours, because Nancy Sutley was part of the initial tranche of officials confirmed by the Senate. And that was a very smooth transition. I mean, the Bush administration emphasized, we had these detailed briefing binders, we had meetings with the transition team. Uh actually, I knew the Obama transition team from having worked with them. during the Clinton administration, you know, it's all very sort of seamless. And then the Obama folks wanted to model their transition on that. In fact, they even brought in folks from the Bush team to talk with folks about how the transition worked. And then, but I was acting chair of CEQ and the Trump administration's first transition was sort of legendary and that, you know, we didn't really know who to talk with and, and it, it kind of went. On for a while. It was, I think it was about a month before, uh, Mary Neyer was assigned to CEQ. Fortunately, she had a great grounding in the statute and, and the agency and such. But, uh, that transition, those briefing binders just kind of sat unread. And I was wandering the halls of the old executive office or office building, talking with folks that I, I'd known from the Bush administration who had shown up for other, you know, like OMB's transition team, that sort of thing. I really don't have much of a window on what's going on at CEQ right now. Here we're, you know, barely two weeks into it. Um, I understand that there's, there's one former, you know, Trump, one official who's is back there. 

Obviously, when you've got an executive order directing that the chair of the Council on Envi Equality shall do this, it indicates that there will be a nomination of a chair. Um, you know, I doubt, probably won't be confirmed by February 19th, but we'll see. And indeed, CEQ created by Title II of NEPA has, and then with authorities that have been layered on by Congress has it has a lot of important roles to play. It's an important position within the executive office of the president. I would expect that CEQ will be in the vanguard in this reform. Gotcha. So, and honestly that that kind of brings me to my, one of my questions about how we kind of wrap up section 5, right? So CEQ does, like you said, it exists, it has to exist, it's in the law, how it does its job, what it's supposed to do, you know, we had it with the court case where they were told they can't offer guidance, while also being told to give guidance with these executive orders. So, can you help me kind of understand what's going on there? I know those are two different things, but they kind of, they talk to the same agency telling the agency to do different things. So how do you, how is he gonna navigate all of the legal changes that are coming? Well, all right, so most narrowly CEQ is told to propose rescinding the CEQ. Regulations. That's probably going to take the form of a notice of proposed rulemaking, which would take comment on, on whether CEQ should rescind its NEA regulations. And I would expect that that would also explain the legal basis for why CEQ is proposing to do that. 

The guidance. I'm wondering, I would expect that this guidance is gonna look like sort of like, you know, model regulations. But, you know, CEQ's guidance could take many different forms, and it could just be sort of a general narrative of, here are the policy principles that you should take in in account as you're updating your NEPA procedures. I suggested in a post last week that, you know, I thought that they, they more or less sort of redo the 2020 NEPA regulations in terms of model. regulation form. Um, that may or may not be. I mean, that's it. I'm just speaking as a lawyer and for purposes of clarity and such, that's the way I'd approach it. Just to answer your broader question, Nick, I mean, it's hard. Take a step back and look at what is an executive order. I mean, an executive, you know, they refer to executive orders as interstitial law. It's in words, it's sort of law, you know, for agencies. It operates just within the, the federal government, and it tells. how to use their authorities. It's part of the president's power to take care to see that the laws are faithfully executed. So there's a deserve a constitutional basis for it. To the extent that the president and executive order goes beyond that, that's where executive orders get into trouble. Here, the president can tell CEQ to propose rescinding the CEQ NEPA regulations. That does not in and of itself, explain why. Or what the effect of that is, we'll have to look to that federal register notice and, you know, they might, they might do it as sort of like an interim final and sort of like effective today. They are rescinded but taking comment on whether this should happen. There are different ways that could happen, but the legal rationale for that is gonna be important to look at. Right? Honestly, this is, you just made me think of this too. 

CEQ can't say no to the executive order, like, yeah, we're not gonna do that. They can't do that, can they? Or, I mean, you know, that's no, as a practical matter, I just don't see that as likely. Right, right, OK, so I just wanted to make sure cause I was, I was just like, oh, I don't know how that happens. So you know, this is pretty big shifts, you know, kind of, oh, this is, this is tectonic. I mean, yeah, yeah, this is a, a major, we'll have to see how much of a tectonic shift this is. Uh, I mean, it feels like a, you know, a major earthquake right now, but come February 19th or thereabouts, hopefully we'll have a better handle on. What does this actually mean? Right? So, and I promise we'll get, we have so many other things to talk about, so I promise we'll get there I just, this is a big shift from this administration. If the next administration has different priorities. Are we just in an era of mega shifts? I mean, I know it's hard to answer that, really, but even considering Trump, Biden, Trump, I feel like we're just kind of ping ponging back and forth between what we're going to be required to do. Is that mean? Well, you could also argue, well, maybe after this shift, people will say, let's not have further shifts. I mean, the CEQ regulations were, for example, were in place for 40 years with only one. Amendment that was just sort of a minor, or relatively minor change for worst case scenario. We'll see. I mean, I, you know, I'm by nature an institutionalist. 

I hope that we can get back to a place where this is just a, a solid and foundational approach there that, you know, these, these goals are a more efficient environmental review process and more effective decision making, aid to decision making is actually realized that that You know, sometimes it seems kind of Pollyannaish, and so, you know, yeah, no, I, I totally understand. But you know, like I said, there's a lot, there have been a lot of executive orders that have come out and, you know, we've got NEPA, we've got endangered species, climate change, environmental justice. There's so many places to start. I kind of wanna say a little bit about environmental justice first, but that seems to be, is that something we're just not riding into NEPA anymore? Is that an area where there's not as much, I don't know if there's precedent for it to stay. How do we approach even analyzing environmental justice at all? Environmental justice and communities that were underrepresented in environmental review and decision-making processes and, and fence line communities, those are, those are issues that have existed for a long time. That's in many ways it's a core concern. For environmental review processes is the effects on disadvantaged communities. And then it really sort of transcends any particular executive order. The executive orders, going back to, well, you know, through to the Clinton administration, were designed to basically provide recognition for something that had been or an aspect of environmental review that had been sort of debated. imperfectly addressed that it was trying to bring some coherence in order to it all. And, and certainly, you know, the Biden administration with the CSS tools and tried to bring a great deal of sophistication to it, but ultimately those issues remain. 

And so you could say, well, OK, these executive orders have gone away. They were never directly enforceable. The policy direction. It is fairly clear as it stands right now, but as a matter of effects analysis, you know, whether a proposal for agency action is gonna have a disproportionate effect on a disadvantaged community, that's an issue that is gonna need to be evaluated in one way, shape, or form or another. I would also say, you know, with regard to climate change. You say in a major infrastructure project is, it's reasonably foreseeable that it will have effects that will be magnified or changed by climate change, and that the project design itself will be affected by climate change. Those are just things that, you know, just as a matter of of just good planning need to be addressed. And so, you know, you can have an executive order that says they're gonna wipe away every other executive order, but you still, as a basic requirement of environmental review, need to figure out how do you evaluate it. Now, there's also the issue of just how do you describe it in a way that will be palatable to the agency. I recall back at one point, we talked about energy efficiency instead of greenhouse gas emissions. There were basically two sides of the same coin, but that's another realm of challenges there is how do you describe it? Right, right. 

So I can see this being a challenge and, and I, I could see this being different in different locations as well. Some may see this is great, we don't do this anymore, and others may say, OK, how can we keep doing it and put the language in there so that it, it goes through. So where can people find this information or how do you, how do you first see them doing this when also the information has been removed from the website? Well, it's, it's a moving target. I mean, certainly, yeah, as I said, MA.gov is still up and running. There are resources there. I think this probably underscores the importance of being involved in NAEP coming to the annual meeting, having these conversations, cause it's gonna be, it's gonna be evolving. We need environmental professionals to basically share information, best practices, and talk and look to each other's environmental documents. I mean, I think every environmental document in the public realm becomes something of a resource. And frankly, we're all held to, you know, explain why did you describe this effect this way or why do you think that this is an effective environmental Impact statement with regard to this issue. 

That's where I, I, I think we're gonna have a lot of interesting discussions. You can call it coping strategies, or how do we manage environmental review processes that need to move forward. I mean, you can't just like walk up and say, OK, I'm gonna sit on my hands and wait for higher direction. I mean, there are agencies and the public expect that agencies will continue to make decisions and move forward. In fact, you know, we haven't even talked about like subsection D of Section 5, which is about using all of your, your tools to eliminate delays within the permitting processes and, and use expedites permits and make sure that agencies are working with project sponsors all the way down through construction and development of permitted projects. There's no intention to just kind of like sit back and wait. Yeah. Right, right. So they're also doing other fun things like withdrawing from the Paris climate agreement again, and then also revoking mandates for electric vehicles or promotion, wind energy, rollbacks, other things, but at the same time issuing in an energy crisis. So, what do you, I don't want to say that it's obvious what's going on. But from your standpoint as a lawyer and things, what can we expect from all that? Well, I mean, if you look at the declaring national energy emergency, you know, it's the term energy is defined to mean crude oil, natural gas, lease condensates, natural gas, liquids, petroleum products, uranium, coal, biofuels, geothermal, I mean, it's, you know. Kinetic movement of flowing water, which, you know, hydropower, in other words, and, and critical minerals. 

And so critical minerals projects are considered energy projects because of that, um, but it, it rather pointedly doesn't talk about wind, and we've got the withdrawal for wind. So it's a challenging time for wind energy, both offshore and onshore. There will be a process for evaluation. and it might take the form of, you know, programmatic environmental review. The emphasis on fossil and uranium and those biomass fuel sources definitely indicates, you know, a policy preference there. But on the other hand, as you know, I mean, it's a national energy emergency. If there is actually a national energy emergency, why would we take anything off the table? Secretary Burgum, who, you know, as of this taping was just last night confirmed as Secretary of the Interior, has talked about support for all of the above and aspects of, of the energy infrastructure, like, you know, transmission, which are, you have transmission lines that are designed to access sources of energy, maybe even wind power, that they're, they tend to be, you don't have green electrons versus brown electrons. They're, they're, you know, they're all electrons, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, and that, that's kind of like, there's also been some talk about solar rolling back as well or not being mentioned, um, so it's interesting to hear that too, cause I know the military, for example, is working towards energy independence and one of the big ways they were doing that was solar energy, um, it's just like being off grid so that if there is a hit to the, the system, they don't lose power. Um, so is that kind of thing still on the table or is it to be determined? I would expect that would continue forward. I mean, it's, you know, particularly like you can talk about like bases like Fort Irwin and, you know, I mean, it's just by design, they're somewhat isolated.

 They really don't want to be dependent on the grid. They need to have that sort of durability, sustainability. In fact, you know, the military has been responsible for a lot of advances, and they're very much in the forefront on small modular nuclear reactors and the development there. Yeah, and so, I mean, I, I would expect that for in the interest of national security, the military would be unhindered by this, but we'll see what, you know, the new leadership of DOD does. Right, right. Well, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on today was to talk about all this stuff, but, you know, Nick, through work has got, has, you know, fielding employees' questions and fears and Nervousness and anxiety. I don't know if you know, but millennials suffer from a crazy amount of anxiety and uh that's where a lot of our young employees are. And I, as a career coach, I've had the best month I've ever had because people are terrified and don't know what to do and if they should even bother trying to find a job in the green space at this time. So I think it's important and one of the things we wanted to have you on is to talk about how can people stay engaged and involved without it. Freaking them out, like knowing that they could go to the NEPA site and rather than the CEQ site to know where they can still get their information is great, but how can they contribute?

Like, if you want to oppose something, you don't like these executive orders, is there a place or for people to give public input or do we just have to take it? You know, as a, as a general matter, I sort of take a long view of these things, and I'm, I'm not a millennial, so I'm I. Um, I think back to, you know, sort of like my predecessors. I mean, I started off in the, the honor program at the trial attorney at the Justice Department, and when I arrived there, the transition from Carter to Reagan was still fairly raw, uh, for people, and I, I. Call someone who became one of my best friends, you know, talked about how, well, it actually made me a much better lawyer. Uh, you know, instead of just kind of operating with my assumptions of things, I, in the Reagan administration, he was, he found that, you know, he was challenged to You know, really think carefully about why is that, you know, what's the legal basis for this, and, you know, that it was a sort of growth experience there. And so, you know, that, you know, take heart, this, this might actually be useful. And I, I would also encourage people to, you know, stay engaged. I mean, it sort of disengage. Engagement is not a viable strategy. Frankly, it's, it's more important. It's too important. We're talking about not just, or rather, we're talking about both our environment and our democratic system of governance and frankly, public engagement and public understanding of, you know, what's significant and what's not. And what's a real effect versus, you know, or an effect worthy of consideration versus an effect that's just, OK, this is small stuff we need to be able to move on. 

I mean that's that sorting exercise that the NiA process is designed to do. And there's been a, a constant drumbeat of we need to do it more efficiently as the public now expects that, you know, You know, thanks to these AI servers that are consuming water and energy to kick out answers very quickly, we've got a foot race, a competitor in terms of information. I'm like, OK, the environmental review process is designed to create high quality reliable information. That is in short supply. That's a valuable commodity, and that, that's where we need people engaged. And the fact that we need to do it faster and more effectively, well, OK, we need to find the tools to do that. Yeah, right, that's good to know. And then any other advice for career seekers, especially ones who may have thought they were just graduated, and I was going for that government job, I wanted to work for the EPA, where should they turn their attentions. Well, I mean, here we are, you know, in a week when there's been a, you know, blast emails suggesting that people need to say by next week, whether you're gonna resign or not. And that's got to be kind of disheartening. I mean, I, I understand. I mean, it's like my father was, was, uh, you know, senior executive service federal employee during the Reagan administration when, you know, he was saying government is the problem. And that that can be disheartening. On the other hand, there are, you read books like The Fifth Risk. I mean, it's just there, it underscores the fundamental importance of so much of what is done in government. Part of being a part of public service is being subject to a frequent analysis of, OK, so what are you doing and why are you doing it, and you know, justify your existence. That does not in and of itself undermine the importance of, of public service. And I don't mean to just, you know, emphasize federal service. 

I mean, there's many opportunities for public service out there. And, you know, this is an important arena. So doing it well is, I, I would say not just as important as it always been, it, it just becomes more important every year. Yeah, very well said. Thank you. Well, you know, I could say, you also, speaking of things you're working on, you have an upcoming event at the American Law Institute on February 21st. Yeah, it's ideally timed. Yeah, I was about to say. Yeah, I'm actually really looking forward to that. We, um, it's the annual American Law Institute continuing legal education, and I'll be talking with folks about NEPA and environmental justice, and that'll be here in DC. Now we've got, you know, we'll do a few things like this and we'll also talk it at the NAP annual meeting in in South Carolina. I'm looking forward to tracking these developments as they come, but. That's my first opportunity after February 19th, the 30 day, you know, time frame for CEQ to issue its guidance to talk about these recent developments.

So that's sort of like my, my next big opportunity for, you know, sort of a turn of the crank, if you will. Yeah. So where, where is that? How do people? That'll be at the, at the Marriott. And if you go onto the American Law Institute's website, you can find their environmental law CLE and their You know, it's, it's always a, a great event with some really outstanding speakers and uh, you know, real leaders in all aspects of uh environmental law. Perfect, perfect. Thank you, Ted, for that and You know, like I say, we've had a pretty intense discussion for most of this, and like I said before, the real reason we want to have you on is to talk about sailing. Um yeah, so I need to know about how you got a free boat and what's going on there. And then I'm gonna have a separate follow up that I hope it doesn't worry you, but I want to know, has Ted Boling ever been stuck? That's the other. Oh gosh, oh that's all. Yes, I have. OK. So, all right. I, I have a, a little, it's a, a 30-foot Pearson, that's a sailboat, which is, you know, for those people who know sailboats. I mean, it's just like, built like a tank. I mean, you, you really can't do too much damage to it, which is why it's, it's sort of a durable boat and good first boat for me. I grew up sailing on the Chesapeake Bay. 

My father had a We had this 32 ft wooden catch, which was mostly like, uh, you know, 10 to 1 work to, uh, sailing time ratio and maintaining it. But my little piercing was given to me by a friend's ex-husband who was just like giving stuff away because he was retiring and moving to Martha's Vineyard. Like, you want my boat? I'm like, sure, I'll take. Um, and I put in italics a free boat, because anyone who's ever had a sailboat knows it's, it's not free for very long. Uh, it's, it's long since ceased to be free. And actually, one of the first times I took it out, I managed to hit a shoal that was just, you know, part of the dredge spoil area, just like, you know, 30 ft off the dock. At the marina and it was Labor Day weekend and I'm like, I called the marina like, well, sorry, we don't have anyone here who can help you off, you know, because it's Labor Day. I'm like, what? Wait a second. And you know, bless his heart, somebody just like, you know, saw me out there and like, you know, came out in his boat and just pulled me off, and we were able to sail away. It was just out of the goodness of his heart. I, I still want to buy that guy a beer. I, I had. Uh, but that was her, and, and it's a good thing I sail in Chesapeake Bay cause there are like, you know, 3 rocks in the entire Chesapeake Bay. I was gonna say. They're, they're actually the mouth of the Tapsco River outside of the port of Baltimore, but, and I avoid that. Um, so it's, you know, it's a fairly forgiving environment.

 It's a good place for me to sort of relearn sailing, which I've been doing for the past few years. And so I'm, I'm up for sailing anytime the weather conditions, uh, and weather conditions and work conditions allow. Right, of course. So, like, what is it, what's like your longest sailing trip? Is it like, are you a day person? Do you try I've been mostly just day sailing in this one. I, you know, back in the day, we would cruise the bay and, you know, we're out there for a week or so. And I, I'd like to get back to that at some point. I mean, we You know, we had some great experiences that way, including, you know, the kind of life moments when the, like the toilet, what do you refer to as the head in the, in the, the sailboat went out and it can be a real family lore creating moment, you know, that kind of. Oh yeah, those are the kind of stories that, hey, you remember when, yeah, yeah, remember when we had to use the bucket from the crab on Saint Michael's, Maryland? Yeah, and there's always someone who's like, let's never talk about this again, you know. Yeah. Oh man, so you've also though, uh, picked up, uh, playing guitar as well. Well, I'm, I'm, and it's sort of, I'm going back. I haven't really played guitar since high school, but I, I just decided that, you know, I need to do the sort of mental exercise of something completely different. So that's where I'm, I'm working on a few songs. 

I've got a conduct guitar teacher and who knows, maybe on the my 4th appearance here, I'll, I'll have a song for you. Yeah, there we go. Uh, that would be amazing. And, uh, I don't know, I always find it to be very cathartic, right? And it's one of those things that like people, even, even when you're stressed, you've got to find ways to like let go of that anxiety. For me, playing guitar. I'm not, I'm a campfire guitarist unless, you know, I got my chords down and I can sing and I have no aspiration beyond campfire guitar, but I, I sing. I like to, I really like to sing. I'm in the, I'm in the choir at my church, and that's just, you know, that's, and then so now I need to actually like. Work with a guitar, is I'll have my hands actually keep up with my singing. OK. I'm a bass and I'm just, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bass is, it's important. It's a rare commodity, honestly. Yeah, I, I, I like hitting low notes. Yeah, yeah, little Johnny Cash for you then, there we go. Yeah, there's a dark and a troubled side of life, the sunny side too. OK, that's, that'll be our theme song as we go out. 

There we go, absolutely, and keep it on the sunny side. But we are running out of time. We've talked about some really important topics and some other things that are equally as important. And uh anything else you want to touch on before we let you go? Well, no, I just, I, you know, since you've given me the bully pulpit, I would just say, you know, for those listening, please, you know, take heart, hang in there, think of the long run here, both your, your career, as well as also, you know, the good of our communities and the planet, and keep up the good work. Awesome, love it. And where can people get in touch with you? They'd like to ask you some questions. Hm, Perkins Coy.com. I, I, you know, you just plug me in any Google search. I, you know, I tend to pop up like a, you know, I turn up like a bad penny. Awesome, thank you. All right, thank you so much. That's our show. Thank you, Ted, for joining us again today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. See you, everybody. Bye."