Controversial Projects, Environmental Justice, and Consulting with Emily Gulick

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Emily Gulick, Environmental Planner at Jacobs Engineering Group about Controversial Projects, Environmental Justice and Consulting.   Read her full bio below.

Help us continue to create great content! If you’d like to sponsor a future episode hit the support podcast button or visit www.environmentalprofessionalsradio.com/sponsor-form 

Showtimes:
2:16  Nic & Laura Talk about Dressing for Success
5:50  Interview with Emily Gulick Starts
10:44  Consulting
15:07  Controversial Projects
23:13  Environmental Justice

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Emily Gulick at https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-gulick-cep-it-60a941b6/

Guest Bio:
Emily is an Environmental Planner at Jacobs Engineering Group. Although located in California, most of her environmental experience is at the federal level implementing NEPA.  Emily has supported a wide range of projects including large-scale and highly controversial EISs to small-scale expedited EAs for a variety of federal agencies including NASA, DoD, and NSF. Emily also leads the National Association of Environmental Professionals (NAEP) Environmental Justice Working Group and is a CEP-IT. Emily has a B.A. in Environmental Studies and a B.A. in Geography from the University of Colorado Boulder.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Transcripts are auto-transcribed

[Intro]

Nic 
Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental enthusiast Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Laura I discussed the dress for success mantra. We talked to Emily Gulick about controversial projects, environmental justice, and consulting. And finally, there is a last city underwater, close to the summit of an underwater mountain range west of the Mid Atlantic ridge. It's not a real city in my view, but it is actually the largest and oldest hydrothermal vent system in the world. It is a series of event towers that range from toadstool science all the way up to 200 feet. It's wildly impressive, so you should check it out online. Pretty cool stuff.

Laura 
Yeah. So there's photos of this. That sounds really cool. Back Yeah, I

Nic 
just discovered it in a few, I think, like 10 years ago or so. But yeah, there may be a larger one out there. Somewhere, but this is the longest one they've ever found. So it looks like an underwater city, so to speak. So cool. I

Laura  
think this is where the snarks live. Remember snarks?

Nic  
Yeah, what's a snark? Sam?

Laura 
No clue that music.

[NAEP Event News]

NAEP's next advanced NEPA workshop will take place September 14 from 11am to 7pm. Eastern Time, is a series of workshops is intended to provide participants with practical tips and tools about how to refine preparation and review of environmental documents prepared pursuant to the National Environmental Policy Act. These workshops introduce environmental professionals to best practices for NEPA compliance. The eight hour intensive workshop has been organized into six topics, you can register today@www.naep.org Also our super amazing guest today will be one of the presenters. We appreciate all of our sponsors and they were keep the show going. If you would like to sponsor the show, please head over to environmentalprofessionalsradio.com and check out the sponsor forum for details. Now let's get to our segment.

[Nic & Laura Talk about Dressing for Success]

Nic 
I was gonna ask you, Laura, like I've noticed this thing in here in Emily's questions, talking about dressing for success, dressing for the job that you want. And it's just a funny phrase. It's a it's a really silly answer to a question is what should we wear when we're in the office for the job you want? And it's just

Laura 
great advice for someone who's going in the field that day.

Nic 
Has attire ever gotten you a job? I mean, I don't know. I mean, to a degree, I kind of understand where they're coming from, but it also sounds very silly to me. Like if someone asked me, What should I wear? And like we're there wherever you want for the job that you want. You know, that doesn't make any sense. Like, no, seriously, what's the office dress code?

Laura 
Yeah, I know somebody who's to say that all the time and she dressed like a frumpy, old lady. And I was like, Well, I don't know what job you're looking to get, but not the one that I want.

Nic  
Yeah, well, you know, the first thing that popped in my head was librarian and I felt really bad for thinking that is that we?

Laura 
Yes, it looks like you'd like to be a greeter at Walmart. So how's that going for you in your job search?

Nic 
I mean, so there is a level of professionalism. I think that is important. When you're in an office setting, right? But completely goes out the window. In the field setting. It is almost like you should dress to survive more than you should do for anything else. And

Laura 
show up and like fins and snorkels when you're going on to examine a wetland because you'd like to be a diver instead.

Nic  
Exactly. So I'm just gonna wear scuba gear all day. Well, someone puts me on a boat, right? Yeah, it's just a pretty funny thing. I just I can't imagine it has field people like you have to deal with. Just like I always have the reverse action. I'm like, man I have never looked worse in my entire life than I am currently. You know, it's just like, well, this is it. I guess I'm just gonna be a gross sweaty person, you know, hope it's not too bad. And then just roll with it. You know? So we almost have the, the opposite, where you you really bond with people in the field? You have to

Laura 
Yeah, I really think you know better advice is just dress well for the chat that you have you know, like what so what if you want to be like, manager leader but all of the rest of your colleagues and friends in your same job description level are wearing polos and jeans. When you look like the schmo who's like I can, I'm gonna we're gonna bow tie, you know,

Nic 
right. Well, yeah, and there's, there's not it's funny one of my brother used to say this thing to me, because I remember when I was young, I got stressed about what I should wear. And he's like, look, no one's ever gonna be like, Oh, that guy overdressed gross. You know, he's like, you can always try to be overdressed. But like, once you get a feel for what people wear, you just, you know you can match what they're what they're wearing. You thinking too hard. Basically. You know, what I don't

Laura 
like about it as a woman who does not like to wear makeup to impress people or heels and all of that, like, so if you're underhandedly telling me that if I want to have a certain type of job, I have to wear a certain type of clothes, then you're stereotyping and doing all kinds of stuff you shouldn't be doing.

Nic 
Right. Yeah, and it's probably not just an off the cuff comment, I'm sure but like it's Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

Laura 
But it's like, what is the meaning of it? Yeah.

Nic 
Yeah, you have to look professional. What does that even mean? What does that mean? You know? Yeah,

Laura 
but I do particularly love Emily's response to it. So, yeah, I got this interview.

Nic
All right.

[Interview with Emily Gulick Starts]

Laura
Welcome back to EPR. Today we have Emily Gulick. environmental planner at Jacobs Engineering Group and na P member on the show. Welcome, Emily.

Emily Gulick 
Thanks so much for having me, you guys. Awesome. Thanks

Laura 
for being here. First of all, I would just like to know how are things going on your side of the country because we're all over here on the East Coast.

Emily Gulick  
Yeah, and you know, the west coast here. It's let's see, it's August timeframe. So we're entering like the end of tourist season and I will say for those who haven't been to San Diego, they say September is the best time to visit. Kids are all back in school and the weather is amazing. So if you're out here and let me know and we can meet up at the beach.

Laura 
Good to know I'm so glad I asked. We're really excited to have you here. And you were such a great example of an emerging professional with NAEP. And you've been with Jacobs for almost five years now. Which seems crazy, because I don't remember when we met but it was a couple years ago. And it's been pretty awesome to see you progress in your career. So quickly. But Jacobs does really great work and some really fun, interesting things. We've talked to Michelle Raul and some other people there, but why don't you tell us a little bit about the projects that you work on?

Emily Gulick 
Yeah, that sounds great. So like you mentioned, I'm an environmental planner at Jacobs. And within that, I really focused on the National Environmental Policy Act. And I work primarily with space and defense agencies, such as NASA and the National Science Foundation. So the work really varies all over the United States, like although I'm located here in California, you know, I could work on projects in Nevada or Florida, anywhere from coast to coast. So those are just some examples of clients that I work closely with.

Laura 
Awesome. Well, that all like I said, sounds like wonderful, amazing work. Well, we're curious, where did your love for nature and environment come from? Did you have some sort of defining moment as you're growing up?

Emily Gulick 
So the way I think about life is, I don't think that there's one defining moment that really chooses your career trajectory or your life's trajectory in general. Right. I think it's more of a sum of its parts. So for example, though, I did grow up going to an expeditionary learning school during the elementary ages, and that really changed the way you think about the environment around you. So from that dividing point in my life, just kind of crafted my whole life to be interested in science and be interested in art and be curious about the way that the Universe works and people work and I really think that the environmental world is really multifaceted in the sense that you could go so many different directions with it, which is why I love environmental planning. It really challenges you to think very holistically about the challenges and life and only from a personal side and you know, the environmental issues that we deal with in this 21st century and with that, too, I still love to spend time outside. I mean, it's definitely a pivotal aspect of my life. So it's definitely infiltrated throughout my entire existence.

Laura 
Awesome. So you mentioned earlier that you didn't grow up in the California area. Where did you go? Was that school? somewhere else?

Emily Gulick 
Yeah, it was located in Denver in Colorado. Very cool.

Nic 
Yes to cool actually. Jealous.

Laura 
And then so and on top of that, so you mentioned that you still like to be outdoors and stuff. You took a gap year between high school and college did you also do some outdoor stuff in?

Emily Gulick 
So I actually, probably, to my parents dismay, I should say, took a gap year after college. So between graduating and pursuing the workforce, I decided to take a gap year afterwards. And I think it really came down to wanting to make sure that when I enter the professional workforce that I went in direction that allowed me to find a job routing back to what we were just talking about that found an equal balance of kind of art and science and I wasn't really sure what that balance was at that time. So when I found environmental planning, I realized that no, this is the answer for me. Very cool.

Laura 
So you've mentioned art and science couple times, which I love because I'm both environmental scientist and photographer and used to do other kinds of art. Do you do art too?

Emily Gulick 
Yeah, I'd love to draw and I think art is kind of this unique term that people kind of throw around and always assume, you know, you have to be putting pen to paper, but I think there's lots of ways you can make art in life. I think cooking is an example of art in this world. Of course, we could even say gardening. So I think it's just creativity would be a better term to use.

[Consulting]

Laura 
Yeah, for sure. I know that on Instagram. The food art these days is getting insane. I follow so many people who are either baking creating chocolate tears like people making so much really cool just like art out of food. I'm like, oh, some of it. I'm like, How do you even eat that? All right, cool. So then after that, you went to college at the University of Colorado Boulder, and you earned a bachelor's degree in environmental studies and geography. Did you think you would get into consulting work at that time or did you have some other sort of career path in mind?

Emily Gulick 
I was not aware of the consulting world at that point in my life. I think it's definitely a niche that a lot of people when they enter the career field, probably aren't that familiar with so wasn't out of a lack of interest. It was more maybe more on the lack of ignorance or sorry, not lack of ignorance, but ignorance I should say. And so I was not aware of that. And at the time, I was pretty open to different ideas and feel like I could fit into my various careers and I think when I think about my ideal life trajectory when it comes to a job or a career, it's good to be multifaceted and the way of trying various things and the environmental planning world allows you to kind of what we call choose your own adventure. There's so many different clients you can work with and types of projects you can work with, and expertise that you can develop over time and grow in and, you know, we're all in the environmental world and understand that every year is changing, right? So the challenges that we were faced with 10 years ago are different than over going to be faced with in 10 years from now. So it allows you to stay on your toes and always be curious and you know, just do what's right for the greater world.

Laura 
Very cool. And so you mentioned that you didn't realize that consulting was an option, so to say, and I agree, I think that people in general don't really know what their options are. after they graduate. So what what changed that when did you sort of discover that this was there was this other world or didn't like our past guests last week, someone knock on your door and say, Hey, you want to work at Jacobs?

Emily Gulick  
That's what just happened actually here here. So I just got a new job at the door. So So I think I'm not afraid of taking risks. And I'm not that sounds weird, but I'm also not afraid of being rejected. But from a job I think it sounds counterintuitive, but and this is slightly this is an embarrassing thing that I did but after my gap year of from school after I took taking a gap year after I graduated, which no one really does, because then you show up at a job interview and you have to explain what you've been up to the last year of your life and you know, at the time I was 20 years old, 21 years old, probably and I was a little bit nervous about that. However, so going back to the embarrassing parts, I put together a spreadsheet of all the jobs I was applying for, and I just started applying to every single job that I thought I could be the remotely interested in and I also realized too, that when you're interviewing for jobs, it's not them interviewing you. It's also you interviewing them, in a sense that resist

Laura 
going to fit for a second. Yeah.

Emily Gulick 
So when I when I showed up for the interview at Jacobs, I instantly felt connected to those on the panel. And it was similar to this conversation. It was a really open dialogue. And it's I just had a good feeling about it. And you've interviewed Michelle Rao on here. So kudos to Michelle and she's listening to this that she really has created a great work environment. And I think that on top of just enjoying who you work with, that's one really important aspect of your career, allowing opportunities for growth and finding your own way to grow too. I think those are great opportunities. So long story short, the environmental consulting world kind of found me more than I found it

Laura 
awesome. Oh, I love hearing all that. Well, you clear secrets listening to hear that spreadsheet, track what you're doing. You're interviewing

[Controversial Projects]

Nic 
them to that's all really really good stuff. It's funny, Emma, your story and mine are pretty similar. I had the same exact experience where I was like, What's NEPA? Again, like, it sounds vaguely familiar. And then here, here we are all these years later. I know. We talked about Michelle and we've heard from you about working on controversial projects is again another thing that you and I share over there's a lot of really difficult projects that we've worked on. So do you have any good examples of what that would be like?

Emily Gulick 
So working on a controversial project is really unique because oftentimes, you'll see your project on news headlines all across the nation. And it's really an interesting position to be in because you have more knowledge about the truth than the media does. So it really takes a keen eye and skill to be able to separate yourself from the emotional side of a project and do what's right for either the environment or the client or what you know, is right because of something like misinformation, or miscommunication or a history of a project that maybe hasn't gone well in the past, but there's shifts that are occurring now. For the better.

Nic 
It's funny so like, I totally understand you're saying I actually had a project once they got picked up on John Oliver, right. So they did this whole speech on it and a whole thing and it was really good except for one part, right? There was one part that was just wrong. But it was really weird to see it was a really strange thing. So how do you deal with that kind of thing? Because I'm sure people notice that they that you're working on these projects, and you kind of kind of gotta adapt to it and respond so how do you do that?

Emily Gulick 
It's super dependent on the type of project you're working on. And I think it's really important to keep in mind that there's never an instance where I made as much as a decision or informed the client to make a decision. That I would consider morally poor choice. So I think knowing that you're doing what's right, or at least giving opportunity for input on the projects allows you to be able to share both sides of the story or multiple sides. There's always more than two sides to a story in a way that's more objective than subjective. So keeping that in mind and sharing all the voices of a project and all the opinions of a project without letting your own personal feelings about it. penetrate into the stories that you're telling.

Nic 
Yeah, you know, it's fine. I've always found that a lot of times anger at a project is usually misinformation, right? It's usually just people not understanding what's going on. And I've seen projects go from being controversial to by the end, everyone's kind of satisfied. Is that ultimately your goal or do you think sometimes it's just you know, sometimes projects need to happen and there's always going to be challenges no matter what.

Emily Gulick 
Think every project that you ever worked on has its own unique challenges. And I guess that's a statement that could apply to your life as well. And then actually notice that when you go in recognizing that a project is going to be controversial, you walk in with all the tools on your tool belts, and you know, what you're getting yourself into, actually think the hardest projects are projects that you started, and then they become controversial when you had no idea that it would be an issue. And I think that one is more of a difficult project to work on. Because you're adapting on the fly, and you've already made risks in the water that then you can't keep the water calm anymore. Whereas when you go into a project that you know is going to be controversial, you're able to approach it in a very tactful and slow process. In order to keep people well informed and give them plenty of opportunities for their own inputs. So when you go into a project that you don't think it's going to be controversial, and it ends up being it. It's often because you've absolutely had an oversight in your planning process, and then it reflects on how you viewed the project and how you incorporate your clients. So I think that project is actually more difficult to work on.

Nic 
Yeah, I got you. Yeah. 100% Yeah, so a little bit more about you, too. In 2121, you were awarded the AP SAP emerging professionals award which is pretty awesome. So we're gonna give you a quick congratulations. So can you tell our emerging professionals listening in the podcast a bit about what app is and why they may want to pursue that certification?

Emily Gulick 
So App sec, is that the academy a board certified environmental professionals, and they work in close partnership with a P and essentially, it's a certification process that you go through. There's two different options you can be absent it and training. So for those who have less than 10 years of professional experience in a leadership role can pursue that. And that's a great path for those who are younger in their career. You can be any age, you just have to be newer in the career and you get partnered with a mentor, and it really is a pretty great community all across the nation. They pair you with someone that share similar goals and is able to really kind of guide you and into what you want your career to be whatever that may be for you. Personally. And it's a great opportunity to meet people all across the nation and network. And then for those who have maybe been in the field a bit longer, you can become a certified environmental professional. And that has had over 10 years of leadership experience and honestly, it's a great environment for mentorship and that experience, too.

Nic 
Yeah. And would you say that like going through that certification process was something you contribute to your career success, or if you get other examples of that as well?

Emily Gulick 
I would say it has contributed to my career success. It's definitely connected with people who I mean, wouldn't have connected with without that opportunity.

Nic 
Yeah. And so what else have you see you're an environmental planner, and we have a lot of us listening to the show. So what other advice would you give for those who are looking to get into consulting?

Emily Gulick  
I would say for those who want to get into into consulting or really want to work in a field as diverse as consulting, I would just say to stay energized. Be passionate and take risks because in this consulting worlds, there's always going to be people who support you and back you on your decisions. And we're in a time of the environmental world and just across the nation where we are coming up with creative solutions to our future problems, and we need for people of of all ages and ranges to share their opinions on what we should do in this world. And in this hyper partisan world, especially, I think we often think inside these crafted boxes that you're expected to fit into. And I think that the consulting world has the opportunity to think outside of those hyper partisan norms and try and create a new direction that we can take this in order to make it something that can transcend through generations to come. So I would just say to come in with all your ideas and there's no bad idea.

Nic 
I love that that's a great answer. Very good answer. And you'll get all this and more with Emily when she also helps put together the advanced NEPA workshop for NAB, which is coming up I think in like a couple of weeks. So can you talk us through a little bit about that with shameless plug, give it a shameless plug.

Emily Gulick 
We have to have one shameless plug every time right so exactly this deeper workshops are something that na P has been hosting for years on end now and it's one of my favorite times to get together with those who are involved in AP or who are aspiring members of na P we did our first in person one just in May during the nav conference last year. It was so fun. Having the live audience it really creates a great dialogue. But essentially, every year they do an update on NEPA. And there's other topics we cover to within NEPA like environmental justice and greenhouse gas and cumulative impacts and whatever the new hot topics are for that year. So it really is a great chance to stay up to date with what's going on in the NEPA world, which we all know is in flux to say the least.

[Environmental Justice]

Nic 
No kidding. And I'm glad you brought up environmental justice too, because that's one of your areas of interest. So how did that come to be like? What about that is interesting for you?

Emily Gulick  
So when Biden came to office, I recognized that social justice was going to be a huge focus of the administration and being a NEPA practitioner. I was knowledgeable that environmental justice was part of me, but so I had no idea that EJ was going to be something that would be a hot topic for NEMA practitioners and coming years and at the time in AP, I'll do one more shameless plugs. There we go. Did not have a working group on environmental justice and it was kind of infiltrating other working groups. And I recognize this as an opportunity to gather these thought leaders and those who are aspiring thought leaders and give them a platform to talk about these shapes and laws, regulations and policies that federal agencies are considering, and even state and local agencies now too, we have seen so I hope started and now lead the environmental justice Working Group at an AP and it's really it's been about almost two years now since Biden came in. Yeah. What year yeah, two years and five years depends on my own math has Yeah, so it's really been a great way to make sure that n AP is staying up to date with the changing regulations.

Nic 
Yeah, definitely changing. I think more changes to come is fair. So what would you say it was a state of environmental justice right now, where are we in the process?

Emily Gulick 
Is a very great question and pretty difficult to answer. So I feel like it's necessary just to give a bit of backstory about us environmental justice as well for those listeners. So right out the gate the administration issued a handful executive orders focused on what they call that whole of government approach to advancing environmental justice. And since then, there has been some movements but I actually think that the EJ movement right now is suffering from some growing pains for a few different reasons. And one reason is that the term environmental justice is really rooted in the civil rights movement from the 1860s. And so by definition in the 60s, the movement focused really on race color, national origin, when it came to siting of facilities especially industrial facilities. So and then in 1990s, the Clinton administration expanded this definition and executive order one to 898 to not only include minority populations, but now to include low income populations. And then most recently, the Biden administration has made some moves to potentially remove race as an indicator when it comes to a lot of opportunities for funding and what they define as a disadvantaged community in the sense that they will not include race as a as an indicator and you know, I think this goes back to how we define the term environmental justice. And I think that our current administration is working to create a definition that is consistent, that can be applied to the whole nation, and I really think that they're faced with a really difficult challenge for a single definition. You know, it's hard to pinpoint how the communities and say, Appalachia feel and how communities and Navajo Nation feel and how communities and Chicago feel and give them one definition that's representative to them all and with that, too, you know, what's considered a burden in one community could be considered a benefit in another community. So knowing what the difference is for each one of those communities is something that is a really difficult task. And creating a definition that's incorrect could actually be a disservice to all communities. So I think we're really patiently waiting on our toes to see what the next year brings, you know, with the revisions to executive order 13898 And how the Justice board you know, should have rolls out when we see agencies what they called scorecards, which are basically environmental justice report cards that are an annual annual requirement. So I really think we are are waiting and I don't think that there's a one size fits all approach to environmental justice. Going back to talk about controversial projects. It really takes understanding the community that you're working in to make sure you understand their unique voices and do what's best in that individual case. So I'm really looking forward to seeing what the next year brings and we'll just sit and wait patiently. Yep,
___________
Emily Gulick 
Understanding the community that you're working in, make sure you understand their unique voices and do what's best in that individual case. So I'm really looking forward to seeing what the next year brings and we'll just sit and wait patiently.

Laura 
Natalie. Wow, that was amazing. Too good. Oh my gosh. Listen, y'all she was not reading that. That was amazing. I'm so glad you're working on this stuff. Awesome. So all the people who are interested in joining the NA P working group with Emily because she knows her stuff here.

Nic 
Person Well, I heard you I know.

Laura 
I went with stuff I'm good.

Emily Gulick  
My voice kinda on that one I'll be very sad

Laura 
was that can you do that over? So she starts crying and walks away. All right, cool. Well, now it's time for field notes. Where our lists are listeners. Yes, we actually would love if our listeners shared some of their field notes with us, but were our guests share interesting or memorable, memorable experiences during their time in the field with us? So Emily, do you have you do plenty of paperwork and other things, any field stories you'd like to share with us?

Emily Gulick 
Well, I have one story. That is just a funny one off that maybe I put in my show notes. But anyway, I sometimes have a sense of humor sometimes. And I was you know, my dad was an engineer, and I was working for this engineering company. And I was just trying to test the waters of of how my boss at the time would respond to some jokes. And I remember we were talking about what to wear to the office because at this point in time, I was going into the office and we had the quintessential conversation of dress for the job that you want. And I learned it out. Tomorrow I'm wearing a Spider Man costume. And I realized what I had just said, and the adult version of me was slightly appalled at myself, but then I started thinking, hey, that's okay, I'm showing you know, this aspect of myself that is maybe not so rigid in the engineering world not to make that overly, you know, up to statement but anyway, the best part was is that my boss thought it was the funniest thing that had said that and I really think it just goes to show, you know, the concept that we talked about now, being your authentic self in the workplace is just an example of that. So that's just a funny story of the office paradigm.

Nic 
Yeah, or maybe she is Spider Man, and we just, you know, I'm hearing it right first time, so

Laura 
that's great. How about any celeb encounters?

Emily Gulick 
I've had no actual celeb encounters. However, I've had what I deemed as a very close celebrity encounter. I was working on a project in Southern California and a pretty wealthy area of Ventura County. And the project going back to controversial projects, was hyper controversial had been going on for decades, had numerous parties involved. So there's numerous federal agencies and state agencies and essentially a lot of history. And what's unique talking about public outreaches. This was a very wealthy community, and they use leverage from celebrities and particular Kim Kardashian to create a large voice about the project and the public meetings. And at this point in my career, this was my very first public meeting that I've ever attended. I was about a year in to my job at the time and my team thought it would be a good idea to have me be the front person in you know, who greeted people and handed out flyers and made sure everyone was signed in. So my naive self was hanging out in the front of this pretty loud and loud public meeting. And in my mind, we all had expectations that there could be a high chance that Kim Kardashian and Kanye West walk in the door so I don't have a selfie with either one of them. Sadly, they did not show up. I think they would have more disrupted the meeting. But it was a great close encounter that I'm sure will happen again in the future. You know, the more the more people use social media for outreach and advocacy, the more often those people could show up to public meetings. And, you know, I work on very controversial projects that's penetrate all across the nation. So you never really know what social media will bring to your project.

Nic 
Gosh, that's true. So true. And it's my LRU almost, that's great. I almost met someone famous and but no, you're totally right. That's actually really, really fascinating. The aspect of like, where social media will take us, I know you've seen this. And typically when we work on any project, right, we have to do some kind of outreach in general, historically, it's been newspapers, but you know, as we've become more and more digital what a newspaper even is, has changed. And so So how do you see that the future of outreach going like where we talk about what other avenues are we actually going to be putting these products out for public consumption because you know, newspaper isn't anymore.

Emily Gulick 
I agree neck and I think level on newspapers not being printed. Newspapers are definitely not in at all. And when you talk about wanting there to be equal opportunity for everyone to hear about public meetings, I think if you were to solely rely on newspapers, you would hit maybe a sub site of that community, but I think you really have to think creatively. At other concepts for outreach. I would say social media is probably what it's going to be used in in the future. And I think it might be a slow transition, and I'm not entirely sure what that would look like. However, I do think we need to think of better ideas for outreach, or maybe not better ideas, but multiple ideas. Yeah,

Nic  
yeah. I totally agree. Like you say, it's a holistic approach to a project. You know, it's not just one, there's no one answer. And so I like that a lot too. But I love that you mentioned talking about being your authentic self at work. And I think one of the goals of this show is to really show people that authentic self when we interviewed people, so we'd love to ask about hobbies, too. So it's not just about what you do at work, but you have a lot of things going on, what do you do to relax? What do you do for fun?

Emily Gulick 
Well, I kind of consider myself as someone who has kind of like a restless amount of energy, so I'm always dabbling in a lot of different things at once. During COVID I realized I needed somewhere to channel some excess energy. It was easy to stay at home and just put away a new computer all day, especially when you're working on some fun projects or there's nowhere to go because, you know, we're off downtime. So I started to run very casually and just around the neighborhood. And then I realized, you know, I would run to go see the sunset for example, I would have these little goals of places I wanted to go see and it was all very desolate at the time. So it was actually pretty peaceful to to run and get some fresh air and talk about great weather in San Diego. Very lucky to be in a place where I could do that year round at that time, so I started racking up more miles on my my running shoes week after week. And then I found myself trying to think very futuristic during COVID times are things I want to do when we have the opportunity to and I talked about wanting to spend some more time outside and I love hiking and backpacking and I came across this backpacking route in Kings Canyon National Park. It's a 40 mile loop that people do normally like four days or so. And for some reason, I got the idea that it'd be really cool idea to try and run it all in one day. And at this point, at this point in my life, I haven't read more than a 10k So it was definitely an objective that felt very forward thinking. And naturally, I've wanted to pull in a friend so I casually asked her if she wanted to join me and she was in so that's thing I knew I had this a trading partner and a friend who was interested and a beautiful place and something to think about in the future. And it really helped keep me sane and channeled my energy from an athletic standpoint. So we had planned to do this run actually in 2021. And then at the time this year is when I've been ablaze. So I post delegates, and I actually just ran it's two weekends. ago. So I ran my first ultra marathon it was I don't even know if 30 minutes of an interview could even talk about the rollercoaster of emotions and beauty that happened during that time. But I will say one just since running sounds really drab to a lot of people but it really is this cool, unique experience where you're challenged from not only a technical approach of being good at running, but it also is like a very mental accomplishment to when you finish your run that you know is going to be challenging and it's taught me that finishing something is a lot harder than getting started. So the first 9% of the fun only requires like 10% efforts, but then the last 10% requires 90% efforts. Yes. So it's just it transcends something greater like you could you can start anything but finishing is a lot harder than you realize.

Nic 
Yeah. Oh gosh. I love that that grown up runner to we twins. I don't know but

Laura 
I don't know what kind of music do you like Italy? That's the defining question. Everything

Nic 
okay, do you mean

Emily Gulick 
I really do. I really do.

Nic  
That's funny. I mean, honestly, I think music is one of the things I was I was actually gonna bring it up like when you're running. It's one of the things that can be inspiring. You can help you achieve your goals too. I remember my first race ever I was just mentally gone halfway through it and then just heard a song. And I was like, oh, okay, I got this and the rest of the way through. That's pretty awesome. So I love those challenges as mental challenges running and overcoming them. It's really, really fascinating. So I love you got to experience that too.

Emily Gulick 
Yeah. Have you ever heard of the four types of fun? No. So essentially, it's a quadrant. So think of x y axis. And the question on the x axis is, is it considered fun now? Yes, no. And then on the y axis is, is it considered fun later? Yes, no. So there's four different types of I guess type two fun, which is what I consider long distance running to be as it's not fun now, but it will be fun later. So it's not fun in the moment, but when you look back, you look back with positive opinions and you want to want to do it again.

Nic 
40 Miles that's, that's crazy. That's up too far. But no, I mean, just circling back, because I know we're running out of time here. But you've accomplished so much in such a short time in your career. Is there anything else as you look to the future that you want to accomplish?

Emily Gulick  
Wow, how about an existential question

Nic 
aside from running into celebrities, I know I know,

Laura 
we told you these will all be easy questions. Yeah.

Emily Gulick 
So you're gonna ask me that question. Then say bye.

Nic 
For your next Yeah. Yeah. It'd be perfect for your next run. Absolutely.

Emily Gulick 
So I think when I think about the future and what I want, it's really easy to have ideas of where you see yourself, but I think you have too many constraints is self limiting. So having incremental progress for objectives that you think you want to reach, but then at the same time, keeping an open mind on opportunities that maybe you hadn't thought of in the past, or the future is a way that I like to live my life and that's probably how I got into consulting and that's how I got into running and that's how I got into who knows what I'll be interested in the future. So I would say I have ideas of values that I hold and the direction I want my life to go. At the same time. I'm very much open to the idea of carving a path as I go, and just following my nose.

Laura 
I thought for sure you're gonna say Spider Man,

Emily Gulick 
and then become Spider Man.

Nic 
She's definitely not already.

Laura 
Oh, well. This has been so much fun. And we are almost out of time. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about? We didn't mention.

Emily Gulick 
Oh, you guys covered all the bases fun. Assembly some hard questions and

Laura 
I have to say they were a little bit tougher than normal. With my phone

Emily Gulick 
you insistently have a moment for like me talking about one project that I could probably talk about. So I'm working on like, on a pretty controversial projects in Hawaii. And, you know, we've talked a lot about public engagement and outreach. And I would really say this is like the quintessential project of developing unique outreach approaches, which I think is very interesting, and I'm excited to see the fraction that goes and on top of doing work, that we're a Space Agency, the 30 meter telescope, is something that has been on the news for the last decade or so. And, you know, it's a class of what they call the extremely large telescope, and it would allow us to see deeper into space and observe the cosmos with the unprecedented sensitivity to the environment. So this summer in particular, we've all been, you know, seeing the new photos out of out of the James Webb Telescope, which is really impressive. If this new telescope was were to vote, which the potential decision has not been made at this time. But if it were to be, it would actually be four times sharper than the photos coming out of James Webb. So let's be able to work on a project that is the epitome of you know, new generation of technology. is really interesting. And then also working on a project that is the epitome of a controversial project, when it comes to outreach is also really interesting. And the client has been wonderful to work with. And I'm really looking forward to continuing to work on that project over the next couple of years. So I haven't been so entranced with news of the sky. Like I have this summer it was about as I have one that's my desktop photo on my computer now but I've always liked space actually, my dad was an aerospace engineering so used to wake me up at like four in the morning to watch you know on on TV launches out of the Eastern Range, and I never really realized that you could do environmental work for NASA or, you know, or the space agency. So it's really like the convergence of a two worlds science space environment.

Nic 
Well, no, so yeah, that's absolutely awesome is a it's a really unique and interesting project. And and it's interesting to the community is going to be really involved and there's going to be a lot more coming from that. So we'll be excited to see your project in the news and see how it goes. I think so much

Laura 
like Yeah, last question Where can people find you

Emily Gulick  
find me on LinkedIn at Emily Glick?

Laura 
Awesome, thank you so much for joining us today.

Emily Gulick 
Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate that.

[Outro]

Nic 
That's our show. Thank you, everyone for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe. rate and review. See you everybody.

Laura
Bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai