Running a Small Business, Challenging Projects, and Transportation with Caryn Brookman

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Caryn Brookman, Principal at Blackwater Environmental Group, LLC about Running a Small Business, Challenging Projects, transportation projects, and the Grateful Dead.   Read her full bio below.

Special thanks to our sponsor for this episode Blackwater Environmental Group! www.blackwaterenvironmentalgroup.com 

A certified Minority and Disadvantaged Business, Blackwater Environmental Group has over 20 years of experience working with private sector firms and governmental agencies—especially in the transportation industry—managing environmental programs, interpreting environmental policy, and developing unique solutions to project coordination and environmental documentation tasks.  In addition to our project management and NEPA capabilities, our professional staff of planners are committed to utilizing asset management tools, performance measurements, and reporting methods to help our clients assess and adapt to changing climate and extreme weather conditions that impact transportation needs. With everything we do, Blackwater strives to remember the original intent of national environmental policy—environmental protection, conservation, and enhancement—and seeks innovative ways to streamline the ever-changing regulatory process.  

Help us continue to create great content! If you’d like to sponsor a future episode hit the support podcast button or visit www.environmentalprofessionalsradio.com/sponsor-form 

Showtimes: 

2:15  Nic & Laura's discuss providing feedback to supervisors
12:52  Interview with Caryn Brookman starts
15:47  Caryn talks about running a small business
25:13  Caryn discusses managing challenging projects
33:29  Caryn talks about her secret love for the Grateful Dead

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Caryn  at https://www.linkedin.com/in/caryn-j-g-brookman-39401812/

Guest Bio:
Caryn J. G. Brookman is Principal of Blackwater Environmental Group, LLC. Ms. Brookman has over 20 years of experience working with governmental agencies interpreting 
policy and developing unique solutions to daunting project coordination and environmental documentation tasks. Prior to starting Blackwater, she worked for the Federal Highway Administration and the Maryland Department of Transportation State Highway Administration (MDOT SHA) and, therefore, brings a distinct and balanced perspective to the table. Recently her experience has expanded to advising clients on environmental matters related to alternative project delivery methods such as Public-Private Partnerships (P3). Ms. Brookman is currently leading a major environmental study under MDOT SHA’s I-495 & I-270 P3 Program Office which is considered the largest P3 highway imitative in North America at an estimated $9-11 Billion. The NEPA study is one of the first major infrastructure projects under Executive Order 13807-One Federal Decision and is currently on an accelerated schedule.

Music Credits

Transcript

Transcripts are auto transcribed

[Intro]

Laura 
Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Nic and I discuss providing feedback to your supervisors, not an easy task. We catch up with Caryn Brookman principal and owner of Blackwater Environmental Group about running a small business, managing challenging projects and her secret love of the Grateful Dead, and finally the smallest bird egg is the size of a pea and weighs less than a grain of rice, it belongs to the bee hummingbird, which is also the lightest bird weighing the same as a penny, and for all of you under a certain age, pennies were a form of currency that was widely used to purchase goods, once upon a time, If you do find one of these little copper gems supposedly you might have some good luck.

Nic 
Yeah, yeah well you can't find them anymore, so.

Laura 
Hit that music.

[Shout outs]

Nic  
This episode is sponsored by Blackwater Environmental Group Blackwater Environmental Group, as certified minority and disadvantaged business has over 20 years of experience working with private sector firms and government agencies, especially in the transportation industry, managing environmental programs, interpreting environmental policy and developing unique solutions to project coordination and environmental documentation tasks. In addition to their project management and NEPA capabilities the professional staff of planners are committed to utilizing asset management Tools performance measurements and report methods to help their clients assess and adapt to changing climate, and extreme weather conditions that impact transportation needs. With everything they do Blackwater strives to remember the original intent of national environmental policy, environmental protection, conservation and enhancement and seeks innovative ways to streamline the ever changing regulatory process. Check them out at Blackwaterenvironmentalgroup.com. NAEP is always looking for volunteers, we have lots of committees for engagement, whether it's our NEPA biology, coastal resources working groups, or our official committee groups, we'd love to have your support. Not sure about who needs help, just ask. Also I know for sure that we at EPR are looking for a volunteer to help us create content for the show. Please let us know you're interested at environmentalprofessionalsradio.com Let's get to our segment.

[Nic and Laura's segment]

Nic
Laura, I thought of you this week, actually had a one of my co workers, asked me a great question and I knew, I immediately thought of you. So she, she asked me, How do I provide feedback to supervisors, and I thought it was an amazing question, it's a really really good question but she actually also presented it in two parts. One internally, right, so like, to, you know, a boss or a manager product manager, and then two externally, to a client, which I think are two different things. Yeah, and it's a really really good, interesting topic and I was like, I know who will have the answer, let's ask Laura, so what do you think.

Laura 
I think those are great questions and super timely, my book club the high impact reading challenge we just finished reading Radical Candor by Kim Scott and she has worked for Google and Apple and all those big role model companies, and so she has lots of great feedback and there is a section on giving feedback to your, your bosses. So highly recommend reading that book for anybody at the top, especially for managers and supervisors, but also for the people who are working for other people, as it is, it is super challenging, but in her case, you know, I'm super curious about the details. What exactly is it that she wants to get feedback on. But you're in a tough spot because it really depends on your relationship with your managers or boss or supervisor, whatever it is and what the expectations have been set. You know if you have a boss who's do what I tell you and doesn't ever ask you for feedback, you're in a tough position. And if you've just started this job you're even in a tougher position. So, you have to kind of do some exploring the field and seeing, like, Okay, what position, am I in. Do I have any authority or leeway leverage, or even just the relationship to say something, and then you know with any giving any feedback you know, if it's not solicited, you have to ask for permission to give the feedback, and so like what Kim Scott recommends is asking for that permission and sort of, you don't want to hit them with something big right off the bat. Like, I think you're sucking at your job.

Nic 
You're the worst.

Laura 
Yeah, like, take that. Yeah, but if you can, try to see how they are, how receptive, are they to some smaller feedback, then if it goes well, then you know you can kind of start building that relationship, but again it depends on if you were a field technician, and you want to give feedback to your boss that maybe you don't see very often it's honestly so all you bosses and managers out there listening it's really on you to open that door, and not open the door artificially because it's been my experience that a lot of people will say oh I have an open door policy. And that door is not open. You know, I have an open door policy until I slam it on your foot.

Nic 
Yeah, yeah. And I think maybe the reaction is always the scary part right like you're always really worried about how they're going to react and I guess, is it something that even understanding that getting to that point where you see what the reaction is, does that tell you something as well about the person that's managing you

Laura  
Oh, for sure, you know, if you try to get feedback and they're not receptive or it's my way or the highway, you know, you've got to do some self reflection is this, the environment I want to work in, you know, if you feel like your boss isn't going to change if I come to you, Nic and I'm like, you know, I really don't like the way you talked to me the other day, or I felt like, you called me out in front of a whole team of other people and that made me feel bad and you don't care. You need to go find another job where someone cares about you.

Nic
100% Yeah.

Laura
And that's totally what this book is about is about caring about someone and giving direct feedback, and you cannot give direct feedback without caring for somebody first because then that's, it's not genuine. And so, if you want to create a culture where people are giving because it is all about culture, right, if you don't have a culture where people are comfortable giving each other feedback and that, that rolls down to their whole role model away. And if my boss is willing to accept feedback, then maybe we can build a team that gives feedback to each other. But if our boss doesn't accept and give good feedback, then we're going to be a team of people who also don't give each other good feedback, and so it always starts with the leader. So, I don't know if that answered any parts of your question,

Nic 
no, I really do think it does and it really sparked a lot of really fun, you know, questions and comments and the fear of asking in the first place. I think it's something that immediately comes to mind if you're younger, and you're like, Okay, how on earth are we going to do this I even remember, not even feedback wise but when I wanted to transfer down to North Carolina, I was terrified for like a full week to ask my boss and I finally sat down and asked him, he's like, I was wondering, you're gonna ask me that. It was just like he knew he's like I got married and you know my wife's in a different state and I would like to live with her. Yeah, it's not a problem, you know, so there's all this, this huge weight that I put on myself was immediately lifted off and I had talked to him three days earlier, guess what it would have been. I wouldn't have had to struggle, you know.

Laura 
Exactly. And I think that's a good point and I, something I wish in hindsight I had been better off because yes it's risky, it's kind of, you hang out in the space of what I don't, you know, not facing the fear and not knowing what you don't know is better than knowing, you know, yes, my boss isn't going to change the situation is going to change that means I have to do something right and so a lot of people go on the side of like well I'm just going to deal with it, suck it up, lay with the stress, and then that's just not going to end well. Because another thing will come up. So I think the best thing is if you do have. Well first of all if you don't have regular feedback with your boss, that is the first thing I would request I don't care if you're having a problem with them right now or not. Right, right, even if things are rosy golden. Yeah I would say, Hey, can we, you know, every other month have a 10 minute 15 minute check in, you know, forget the annual reviews, if you have that that's a great, that's another time when you can use it, they're giving you feedback, they should at the same time be asking for feedback of them, I always did that, you know, I would give my feedback but then say what can I do to help you do your job better, you know, and I still do that I do that every two weeks with the employees that I have now, because if they can't do their job it's not their fault, that's my fault, right, right, yeah. If they're not happy in their job that's my fault, you know, and that's part of caring. And so I don't know if you want to stop there if you want to tackle the client question.

Nic 
The client side of things is a different beast, and I've seen lots of good ways of handling it and lots of bad ways of handling it and so I just love your perspective here too though because it is different, like you know it's just not the same as walking into your boss's office and sitting down and having a conversation so I don't know if you can talk maybe some of those differences are, what the appropriate how different it is I don't want to make it seem like it's night and day, but it is different.

Laura 
Yeah, well there's a lot of similarities, I think you still have to care, you know, at the end of the day, you're doing a job and your client has a job and you have to figure out, we both have the same goal in mind. So, I care about you and the work that you do, and then hopefully when you've hired people or accepted work, you're considering those things. And so, setting expectations to its, you don't want to start with a client, and then hit them with feedback that they didn't know was coming, so if they know from the beginning when you start your relationship that feedback is part of what we do, you know, and reciprocating that I'm going to tell you if I'm unhappy something and you're going to tell me if you're unhappy with something, and we're not going to let it fester. And so always setting expectations up front is the best thing that you can do because people get upset when they you know they get hit with something from left field.

Nic 
Yeah, and on my side of things too, sometimes it's just say like you know if it's a junior staff has an issue with a client, they want to provide feedback and they just go talk to the client that's maybe not necessarily the best approach immediately, In my mind, it's probably better to talk through that with your, if you have a good relationship with your supervisor, it's like hey this is the issue I'm having I would like you know some thoughts and ideas feedback on how to address this issue. I think there's some perspective there that you're going to get that you might not have otherwise when you're younger, sometimes, because I think one of the things that's very important to realize here too is that everybody's different. You cannot treat people the same way, even two different clients, you can't say this is exactly how we do all the time. And so maybe your boss has a better understanding of the person you're dealing with than you do. And that's another way you can get different feedback before you go and talk to the client some bosses may say hey, I'll take care of it. Some bosses may say, That's okay, you're very welcome to do so, I'm gonna sit him on the call too just in case it gets in both instances, really you can go to other people to get some advice on how you could go forward is that something worth pursuing.

Laura 
Yeah definitely, it's never a bad idea to bounce ideas off someone before you hit send on an email especially. Yeah, it may be a better you know it depends to it, maybe it's good sometimes to you want to do an email, so you have documentation, but other times it's better to pick up the phone, but you've got to potentially choose which of those options you're going to do, and again it depends on your relationship with that client. Yeah, which is the best avenue. I will say on our book club call there was somebody who had talked about a specific instance where a client had given them feedback and said, you know, there were some spelling errors and some things like the work that you do for us reflects on us, So, I'm just putting this out there to you that if this continues, you will no longer be hearing from us and that kind of feedback hurts but at the same time it was better for them to correct the issue, and maintain the relationship, and then what I loved about Radical Candor, the book is that you really have to be radically candid with yourself and honest about your strengths and weaknesses and what you're providing. But the only way that that had happened was that they set the expectation at the beginning with that client said, I'm going to give you feedback, and you give me feedback as soon as you know, as soon as it happens, I want to hear about it, if that relationship hadn't been established at the beginning, they will more than likely would have just disappeared, you know, right.

Nic 
Yeah, and then they'd be asking why didn't we get our next contract and it's like oh well you had a spelling errors. The first month that you were here, and they never got corrected it's like did you what you didn't tell us and they'll be like, well, that's a good point. That's a really good point. Now, gosh, we could probably spend I don't know another 20 minutes talking about it, but we'll set it for now, we'll come back and guys come back to it and maybe get to our interview.

Laura 
Yeah, sounds good.

[Interview with Caryn Brookman starts]

Laura
All right, welcome back to EPR today we have Caryn Brookman she's the principal and owner of Blackwater Environmental Group welcome Caryn.

Caryn Brookman 
Hi, thanks for having me.

Laura 
So we're super excited to have you, Fred Wagner recommended you to us and had just so much to say it was like Have you contacted yet, have been contacted, yet right right like we're working on it. We'll get her here. So, here you go Fred. She's finally here. But if you wanted to start off by telling us about so you own this company, tell us what Blackwater Environmental Group does.

Caryn Brookman 
I do own it, so we started about what's going on 13 years now, which is hard to believe, in some respects it feels like yesterday and in some respects it feels like a really long time. So Blackwater Environmental Group, we focus on NEPA analysis and documentation. At least that was our main focus when we first started we've since grown and expanded our capability. And just recently, actually we've broadened our capabilities into planning so now we're doing climate change resiliency and sustainability work, but our heart, my heart is really NEPA, I'm a NEPA nerd and so that's how we started. That's kind of the root of it and I would say most of our staff are also NEPA nerds. So,

Nic 
That's awesome. Well, you're in good company. I am absolutely a NEPA nerd. And I'm trying to convert Laura here, but

Laura  
Yeah, just a habitat nerd.

Nic 
Yeah right. But, but how do you have the courage to go out on your own, and get a company for yourself.

Caryn Brookman 
Well, you know, it's kind of funny I think a little bit of it was ignorance. And I think this is so true with a lot of small business owners is that we're practitioners, most of us right no matter what the field, we've been practicing and whatever that field is and we're not, we don't have MBAs, we're not business folks, and we kind of just get into it right because we have a passion for what we do, and that's really what happened with me. So I worked for the government for a number of years before I started the company, I started a family and I thought, you know, this is my chance to get out and do different work, I wanted to not just be stuck in one thing I wanted to have different clients, I wanted to have work on diverse projects and so that's really why I started it, and again a little bit of it was, ignorance, I thought why don't just get in I mean I can just work like I've always been working. And, you know, it's, I have to say it's much different and I quite often I get asked by other women, especially, you know like, I would love to start my own company because I have a family and it would be, I think it would be great to be able to have my own company where I don't have to clock in and clock out, and I say to them in all honesty, not how it works. Before you make that leap just understand that you know it's not a clock in, clock out you're constantly working

Nic
Yeah, there's no clock out.

Laura 
Yeah, yeah, just permanently clocked in.

Caryn Brookman 
Right. That's how I feel.

Laura  
Yeah. So how big is your company now. How many employees do you have,

Caryn Brookman 
We just hit 15 and we've grown quite a bit over a short period of time so I mentioned that we're hitting 13 years this January, and the growth was a little bit slow, you know, of course I started my company during a recession, not the best time to start a company. So it took us a little while to get off the ground, but once we took hold, I mean just the last three years, we just keep expanding and adding more staff so it's been great and I feel very blessed. For sure.

Nic 
Great.

Laura 
So I imagine that you also have had to learn a lot about leadership taking on this role. So, what have you learned what kind of advice do you have to give in that area.

Caryn Brookman 
Yeah it's been like trial by fire, right. Bam. You're a leader now. You need to figure it out. So, I think most of it I have, it's just been kind of learning on the job, right, and that is probably I think one of the hardest parts of owning my own business because prior to that I had not been a manager or supervisor and so I've had to work up to the point where I've had to hone in on some of my leadership skills and really get the confidence to lead a team, it's been difficult, I question myself often I think most small business owners question themselves and question their decisions, am I doing what's best for the company, what's best for the staff what's best for me so I think that's the hard part and I'm quite sure most small business owners and leaders, sort of question that and I have to say, I think a big benefit of being a small business owner is that you kind of find a cohort, or a group of other small business women owners and you kind of stick together and you lean on each other. And I have wonderful colleagues that I just don't know what I would do without because we use each other as sounding boards and I absolutely need that. So

Laura
That's great.

Nic  
Yeah, that really is fantastic and you talk about your growth here, and you're now leading the largest environmental study in Maryland's history, which is also one of the governor's priority transportation projects, and it's under the executive order 13807 We're definitely going to get into the logistics of the project but I was kind of hoping you could tell us a little bit about. Okay, so what is 13807.

Caryn Brookman 
So, 13807 is considered the one federal decision executive order it has since been rescinded so it was a Trump administration, Executive Order, when the Biden administration came on board, it was immediately rescinded. However, this study was under that executive order for a solid two and a half years. And with that, we had an accelerated schedule we still do, but there was much more pressure at that point to continue on an accelerated path.

Nic 
So has that changed with the switch in the Administration.

Caryn Brookman 
What has changed by rescinding the executive order is not that we have slowed down on the schedule but other federal agencies, such as you know, National Park Service, Army Corps of Engineers that were also under the executive order, are no longer. And so there's not as much pressure I think for our federal partners to make decisions quickly and we have wonderful federal partners but without that executive order, you know it definitely did change with our federal partners.

Nic  
Gotcha, sure yeah so, so break down the study for us. So what is the project, what made it a top priority for you. And you know, maybe tell us a little bit of how did you win it.

Caryn Brookman 
Well, I think I'll start with the latter, so I have worked with the Maryland Department of Transportation. I really started my career and matter of fact I interned with them in college and so I've had a very long relationship with MDOT, and I've been under many contracts with them. And so that's sort of how it started, I was just I think in the right place at the right time and I had an established relationship with this agency, and so I was asked to be to take on the oversight of the environmental study, And then they hired GEC, and I was asked to be part of that and so that's what I continue working under, in this leadership role. I feel blessed to have this opportunity it is unusual. I think for a small business, to take on a leadership role like this especially under a GEC with large corporations. So I definitely feel blessed. It has been challenging. Nonetheless, I have a growing company and in some respects I feel like that's a part time job, compared to overseeing a mega project. That's very difficult and, but for my wonderful staff but there's no way I could do it. This project has been in the works for decades. Maryland has been studying, doing something on the Capital Beltway, which, by the way, Yahoo just came out, I think last year, last week I don't know if he saw it but we have the second worst traffic in the country.

Nic
Yeah, yeah.

Laura
Really.

Caryn Brookman
Just reaffirmed. Just below California, and the Capital Beltway is the worst. so, this project is widening two Interstates, as if one wasn't enough but I-495, which is the Capital Beltway goes around to Washington DC, and there's a spur that that goes north it's I-270 Initially it was widening of 48 miles by two lanes, and their high occupancy toll lanes, which is also relatively new in Maryland. We do have some toll lanes, but not a lot, certainly not like our that our southern state Virginia has many toll roads, but we have now pared down the improvements and they're about 14 miles now, which is funny, that's considered pared down I mean that's, in and of itself a major project. So that's where we are, we just put out a supplemental document Friday.

Nic 
Can you kind of walk through what led to the pare down. Was it during this process where you got the comments back.

Caryn Brookman 
Yeah it was. We did the preferred alternative was not identified in the draft environmental impact statement. And so based on the comments we got back on the DEIS and a tremendous amount of stakeholder engagement. Feedback from elected officials, our partner agencies, we realized that we really needed to take a look at, you know, what could be done in this area, there were displacements, there were major environmental impacts associated with part of the 48 miles. And so we did pare it down it now, in addition to the environmental study we are working concurrently with a P3. So, we're working with the developer. And they had defined one phase of the project and so we paired our preferred alternative to more closely align with the delivery approach for the entire program. So, we are 15 miles with replacement of a major structure over the Potomac River as well.

Nic 
Oh wow, I mean like you said, that's still pretty incredible. It's a huge, huge undertaking for sure. So we were talking about the project itself. You mentioned a little bit about how you won the project, and you've also mentioned being a small business working with large businesses so your small business gets a product this large, how does that affect the rest of what you do. Were there other projects that had to go, do you have to hire a bunch of staff do you have to reorganize how you were doing other projects can you kind of walk us through that.

Caryn Brookman 
Yeah, that'd be that's a great question and absolutely when you're working on a major project like this, whether you're a small business owner or not, you're in it. It's not a plug in, plug in, plug out situation pray, you have to plug in, then you're fully in. And so that really did require me to have to take a look at the resources that I had and kind of juggle and manage those resources and add resources and so I did completely reorganized the company, we hired more people matter of fact we doubled in staff since the beginning of the study, and it was just it was necessary and I also needed to add more administrative staff, because as a small business owner, you're really required to do everything you're the financial manager your administrative your HR and so I had to hire people to take on that work, and absolutely I mean I've had to turn down, work, or, you know shuffle it and give it to some of my staff, but on a major project like this it's a once in a lifetime project I really had to make that sacrifice but it's come with a lot of benefits as well.

Nic 
Yeah, and so what are they what are some of those benefits you have from this project.

Caryn Brookman 
Well, listen, no matter how long you've worked in the field. There's always something to learn, and by far I have learned a tremendous amount on this project, and that's really I think the thing that I'm most excited about every day. I'm dealing with something different. It is very stressful, but I think I'm learning a lot and I have to say I'm learning quite a bit about politics, whether I want to or not. Right. Yeah, I'm kind of right in the middle of it, and so that's been different and that's something that I have not had to deal with on other projects, but this is a very controversial project.

Nic 
When you have like, basically have two sets of politics I get the small scale project specific politics that may be, you can talk to you what it's like being a small business with a bunch of big businesses, you know, helping you out, you're the lead, which in itself is a unique situation, but then you like you say there's also a much larger direct political involvement for this project so can you kind of talk through what makes it controversial and how you manage all of that.

Caryn Brookman 
Well, you know, it's definitely been difficult, like I said this project, or improvements have been needed for decades right so this is nothing new to the people that are there, and of course I think this is common on most major projects. The vocal folks are the ones that don't want it right, right, you don't hear from the people that support the project. But we know people support the project I mean people are sitting in traffic for two hours on a trip that should take 15 minutes. It's a quality of life thing. So we know that it definitely is supported and we are hearing from supporters but largely you know we hear from those people that are opposing it.  An issue that we come up with quite a bit is transit versus highway, and that is nothing uncommon, and at least in our case, transit has moved forward there's a 16 mile light rail project that's actually under construction in this area. And so, it's always been our feeling like this need is so great that you need both. It's not one or the other, it's transit, and you need some highway improvements as well. The highway improvements have not moved forward for 30 years. And so now is the time to do it. So, and it's been very controversial, not just with the public but elected officials as well. And that has been a very eye opening. I deal with, we have really great staff, under the program office that can work through those issues. I don't have to directly work through those issues. I'm involved directly deal with that but, but I tend to be a face, along with the program director we give a lot of community presentation, we've probably done well over 200 community presentations,

Nic 
You know it's it's the area you're in to is very very engaged public, that used to live up there so I have a pretty good understanding to be talking about traffic and I think one of the challenges that you have to deal with is the well traffic's already bad so who cares if you make it a little bit worse. And I think that's a lot of where that consternation comes from. Have you seen some of that as well.

Caryn Brookman 
Absolutely. And I will say, not just an engaged public but a very educated public, yes. So, when we are at community meetings, we're dealing with other environmental professionals, we're dealing with, you know, federal agency employees and lawyers, so very educated public which is great because they really provide wonderful input, comments that we can take and really, they've made the project stronger, and that's great, that's what this process is supposed to do, but the improvements that you were talking about we did that quite often. While the study showing that you're only improving travel time by five minutes, you know, why put $3 billion in when I only gain five minutes. And that's actually not, it's not the case. I mean travel time, it adds up an annually, and that really translates to dollars too. And so we try to tell people that, but it's, again, I think most people that support it, are the ones that are actually sitting in traffic. Yes and there are some people that oppose it that don't sit in the traffic.

Nic 
Yeah, which is incredible, but you kind of touched on something else there, the logistics of holding all of these, I mean this is an epic EIS as is, but you held what six public meetings for this project in the middle of a pandemic, and all of those details like it sounds incredible. Like you really have some truly innovative ideas that came out of this. So I'd love to hear how you come up with those ideas, and what they are and, and kind of walk us through that process.

Caryn Brookman  
Yeah, so a global pandemic did not stop the fact that we had an accelerated schedule. So we had to maintain the schedule, and it was, you know, there's no guidebook that says here's a global pandemic, this is what a major NEPA study that has to stay on schedule. We just kind of had to figure it out on our own. It was a lot of strategy meetings and brainstorming and figuring out innovative ways to keep it going. And to make sure that one. The document was available and accessible as it would if we weren't in a pandemic, but also we had to make sure it was done in a safe way. And as NEPA practitioners, we don't normally have to follow CDC guidelines. Yeah, a different case. So, we actually one of the innovative ideas which I thought was amazing and I don't take credit for this our really smart consultants that I work with and they came up with the idea of renting converted sea crate containers to house the DEIS so, of course, all the public locations were closed. Libraries are closed, but public libraries are great because they're usually in the middle of a community right, they're walkable, they're close to transit stops. So we rented these converted sea crate containers, put them in the library parking lots, we had to get permits to do. There was a little bit of a lip on the containers we had to build ADA ramps to each of the containers. There's no bathrooms, so we had to rent porta pots. It was in the middle of summer so we had to rent generators, and we were worried that people are going to steal them so we had to coordinate with staff, every day to go to each location, deliver them, and then pick them up at night, and this lasted for 123 days, we had an extended comment period. Yeah, it was pretty amazing.

Nic 
I mean, so, so Yeah, talk about NEPA nerd stuff that is as NEPA nerd as it gets. That is so cool. And it's incredible for us as I can't believe that that's how it worked, I say 123 days was that, did you guys plan for that to be that long, or is it just kind of, what ended up working out.

Caryn Brookman 
Yeah, we did not we plan for a 60 day public comment period. And based on requests that we got to extend it we extended it to 120 days and ended up being 123 days.

Nic 
Right, yeah, yeah, which I guess during a pandemic, you have to be a little flexible so.

Caryn Brookman
Absolutely.

Nic
So the transportation area up there has always been so intensely focused on like everybody cares about it, but I did love the point you made about the public, having some real value them actually providing insight, very well put, it's a really amazing area.

Caryn Brookman  
Yeah, you know, I mean we've had 200 community meetings. Some of them are huge and some of them, you know I'm in somebody's living room with my shoes off because they don't want shoes in the house, you know, and just like in front of like 10 citizens and I'm there until they're the questions are done, and they are highly educated, very well informed people, and so you are you're on the hot seat for a while, you will feel like you can do anything you can get through. Pretty much do anything.

Nic 
Did you learn anything from it like you had to like Were there moments I guess really where you were like, oh gosh, I'm really, I have to be really careful here.

Caryn Brookman 
You know, because it's so politically charged at first that was very stressful for me because I was worried about saying something right I'm going to be wrong or you know the administration wasn't going to like what I had to say. But you come to the realization. These people live in the area, their properties are being impacted, you just need to sit back and really listen to what they have to say so instead of in my head rehearsing what I had to say I just had to take a step back and be open and, you know, take in what they were telling me, instead of kind of being a little more defensive which is how I felt early on. And once I did that I was able to relax much more in these situations, and I think people picked up on that too. That's the one thing I learned is just to, you know, instead of rehearsing that the answer just sit back and listen to what they have to say,

Nic 
Yeah, it's great advice. Thank you so much for that because that's such a cool project such a really unique situation that you came into but we love to ask people about their interests outside of the environmental world as well and we've heard from a few of our guests about their their unique music interest so we have Ed Kertis was on with ease Parrothead. Heather Miller loves metal, which is awesome. And you're closeted Deadhead, is that right,

Caryn Brookman  
I am I am I know most people look at me and they're like what, I don't. You're not wearing a tiye dye, and smell of the patchouli, and have scraggly hair,  but, yeah, yeah, no I have a closet deadhead and I, people don't think this but I am old enough, I did see the Grateful Dead, with Jerry Garcia. Yeah, yeah, I actually had, I had two older sisters, who used to travel around in the late 80s, or the mid to late 80s, and they followed them. You know, a van would would pull up and they would, you know, the door would open and my sisters would come out and they had been to a couple of states. I grew up listening to them and went to my first show I was 14, I guess my parents thought that that was okay because my sisters were there

Nic
Oh, parents.

Caryn Brookman
Yeah, so I just I love the music, I love the scene, and I continue to see them even though of course Jerry Garcia is no longer here but, of course, they continue to play so

Nic 
yeah Dead & Company now. Right, no longer

Caryn Brookman
Dead &  Company now.

Nic
I mean, how do you think, John Mayer is done, as their guitarist I know he's not Jerry Garcia, but I mean if you had to replace him with somebody, you might as well go with him. Or no?

Caryn Brookman 
Just fantastic. Yeah, no, he's a fantastic guitarist and so controversial right when he started playing, I mean there were there were like we're not going. Yeah, they were like boycotting the shows. I think he's proven himself. And, you know, just go into shows, of course, the majority of us are 40 and up, but there are a lot of younger fans that are coming and I'm sure it's because of John Mayer, my 15 year old daughter knows of them only because of John Mayer So that he's a fantastic guitar so I think he's done really well, and it's amazing that they keep going. Yes, they're old, but sound great.

Nic 
Yeah. You're totally right and it's, it's funny when it came out, I remember being like him. John Mayer. Okay, I guess, yeah, ended up but yeah they're still going like it's just been there for what decade longer. It's been a while.

Caryn Brookman 
Yeah, I think 2016/ 2017 is when he started with them. Yeah, so,

Nic 
so not as long as I thought it seems like it's been forever, but so

Laura 
How many shows have you been to?

Caryn Brookman 
Well over 30. I probably. Yeah, well over 30 I've not counted them all but, I mean, again, I used to see the Grateful Dead and then they kind of morphed into other things that were, you know, was like Rat Dog's Bob Weir's band and then they did the Further Fest and then the other ones we sort of morphed over the years after Jerry passed, and now they're Dead & Company so I've seen a ton of shows and I've dragged my husband along with me who's not a Dead Head.

Laura 
Torture.

Nic  
That's true love is what that is, true love.

Laura 
That is some dedication for sure. What else do you do when you're not working junctures most of your time but I know that you like to hike and some other stuff. So, how do you keep yourself sane.

Caryn Brookman 
Do I love to. I love to hike and actually it does keep me sane. I mean there is nothing like being in the middle of the woods by yourself. Everything you need is on your back, and that's it. No one is talking to you, and you don't have to talk to anyone. It's wonderful. It's a wonderful break from every day. It's definitely, it's a stress reliever for me for sure when I'm feeling really stressed out I just, you know, hit the trail for a little while. So,

Nic 
And do you  have a favorite hike you like to go on.

Caryn Brookman 
Well, I've done section hikes on the Appalachian Trail and I just love, I love the trail, and it's actually really cool you know, you don't see somebody for miles. And then you see a group, and you just kind of like, you know, start talking with them and you hear about their adventures and you talk about your adventures and that's really fun. And it's beautiful and I have to say Shenandoah is an absolutely gorgeous park full of black bears, but gorgeous.

Nic
Other than that though.

Laura 
Yeah, Have you ever seen some when you're hiking.

Caryn Brookman 
I have yeah I went when I turned 40 somebody that works with me. We decided to do 45 miles to celebrate our 40th birthday and so we did a weekend hike, and we ran into quite a few. And the last one that we ran into really was a close encounter. I was sitting making I think it was making mint tea and in Shenandoah, you have to do back country camping so nobody's around, and a black bear came up just was following the AT and kind of came into our campsite. I was reading a map and I stood up and I guess that startled them and he waddled away. But yeah, it's the largest population of black bear in the country is in Shenandoah. So, if you go hiking, you're, you're bound to run into bears.

Laura 
Yeah, that's pretty cool, it's cool and it's intimidating. I ran into two when I was in Alaska. Last year, about pre pandemic.

Nic 
No Thanks, that's

Caryn Brookman 
Well it's good that it was black bears and not grizzlies.

Nic 
Right, right. Yeah. They're though  still fast. Still big

Laura 
It's invigorating. Yeah, it's just cool to see them in their element, you know, I think I got to sit back and watch one eat berries for a little while which was really nice.

Caryn Brookman  
Yeah, my, the woman that I was with thought that I was a complete dork because after I'd had that encounter the whole night I had my bear whistle and every acorn, and every acorn that fell, I was like, That's it, that's it.

Nic 
Right, right. Yeah. That's too funny. Yeah. Hey bear you know you make yourself really big.

Laura  
Yes, lots of Hey bears.

Nic 
Yeah, you can never be cool when you're out there but that's not the point right yeah you got to see  a bear. It's a great story. Yeah, love it.

Caryn Brookman
It is. It's cool.

Laura 
So we're running out of time and it's been so great to have you on. And I do want to wish you the best of luck with your project. I guess where are you on it like is it almost you halfway Are you almost done what is uh,

Caryn Brookman 
yeah we are almost done. We are hoping that June of next year will be the FEIS/ROD.

Nic
Awesome. That's great.

Laura
Yeah, cool. Well good luck with that. So if people want to get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that.

Caryn Brookman 
Best way is to send an email to me. It is my first name, and it's caryn@ Blackwaterenvironmental group.com, and I would welcome people to check out our web page to which is Blackwaterenvironmentalgroup.com

Laura
Awesome, thanks so much.

Caryn Brookman 
Welcome. Thank you guys for this opportunity. It's been great.

[Outro]

Laura 
That's our show. Thanks, Caryn, for joining us today we super enjoyed having you on. This episode is sponsored by Blackwater environmental group, you can check them out at www.blackwaterenvironmentalgroup.com.  Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Bye.

Nic
See you everybody.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai