Environmental Professionals Radio (EPR)

Smart Construction, Air Force, and Stormwater Management with Nadean Carson

July 29, 2022 Nadean Carson Episode 77
Environmental Professionals Radio (EPR)
Smart Construction, Air Force, and Stormwater Management with Nadean Carson
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Nadean Carson, Owner and Founder of Oya Construction about Smart Construction, the Air Force, and Stormwater Management.  Read her full bio below.

Help us continue to create great content! If you’d like to sponsor a future episode hit the support podcast button or visit www.environmentalprofessionalsradio.com/sponsor-form 

Showtimes:
1:33  Nic & Laura talk about the difference between a fixed vs. Growth Mindset
8:58  Interview with Nadean Carson Starts
10:03  Air Force
16:14  Smart Construction
23:03 Stormwater Management
36:14  Workplace Inclusivity

Please be sure to ✔️subscribe, ⭐rate and ✍review. 

This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Nadean Carson at linkedin.com/in/nadeanc

Guest Bio:
Nadean is a self-professed stormwater nerd. She started working with stormwater compliance in the Air Force and quickly realized how important stormwater pollution prevention was to the ecosystem. During her military career, she focused on construction and other civil engineering operations duties. When she separated from the military, she initially worked as a Geotechnical Engineer (that is a fancy way of saying that she worked in dirt) but found her way back to her true love of stormwater management in 2014. She created a Stormwater Management division at a local engineering firm, focused on helping clients manage the stormwater regulations that affect their development, as well as ensure that the sites are limiting their contribution to Stormwater Pollution. She saw another stormwater need developing and decided to tackle it next. She started up Oya Construction as a way to properly install and maintain stormwater controls on construction sites, reducing the sediment deposition into waterways. She is passionate about keeping waterways clean and our environment beautiful. 

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

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Transcripts are auto-transcribed

[Intro]

Nic 
Hello and welcome to EPR your favorite environmental enthusiast Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Laura and I discuss fixed versus growth mindsets. We talk to Nadean Carson about smart construction, the Air Force and stormwater management. And finally, pure water does not conduct electricity. However, as a universal solvent it dissolves more substances than any other liquids so it's never found in its pure state and nature. Thus it becomes electric. Isn't that shocking?

Laura 
I'm glad you didn't make me read that one.

Nic 
Just to look on Kara's face. I wish you guys could see it.

Laura
Totally worth it.

Nic
That music

[NAEP Event News]

Laura 
NAEP's next advanced NEPA workshop will take place on September 14 from 11am to 7pm. Eastern Time. The series of workshops is intended to provide participants with practical tips and tools about how to refine preparation and review of environmental documents prepared pursuant to the National Environmental Policy Act, also known as NEPA. These workshops introduce environmental professionals to the best practices for NEPA compliance. This eight hour intensive workshop has been organized into six topics. Learn more and register today at naep.org We appreciate all of our sponsors, and they are what keep the show going. If you'd like to sponsor the show, please head on over to environmental professionals radio.com and check out the sponsor form for details. Let's get to our segment.

[Nic & Laura's Segment: Fixed vs. Growth Mindset]

Laura
Yeah, this is 1,000% and this is something we could talk about the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset.

Nic
Oh, Fixed and growth. Okay.

Laura
You know, I either want to have more and better good things or just want things to stay the way they are.

Nic 
Okay. And they both have value I'm assuming

Laura 
No.

Nic 
I was trying to figure out one. I mean, okay, so how does that work? How do we I mean, I understand why people get in fixed mindset and I think we see this a lot in business in general, like we just um people, people get set, and this is the way things are and obviously the world enough debt is not static, it doesn't stay the same. It does change. So,

Laura 
And it's not always just about change. It's a big part of it. But there's also it's about believing that there's enough to go around for everyone. When you have a fixed mindset, there's a limited amount of resources. So your decisions are often based either on fear of change or fear of letting other people share the wealth. And so either way, when you ask if there's good and bad mindset, the fixed mindset is generally not the way to go. And then the opposite side is the growth mindset. Where there's enough for everybody. And so your decisions are based around giving and transparency, and rather than fear, and I'm holding all my cards for no one else to see.

Nic 
Right. Well, I mean, I think every idea gets grounded in some experience, right? So if fixed mindset happens because of X,Y and Z, how do you break out of it then?

Laura 
Good question. Well, first you have to recognize that you're doing it? You know, I think that people who have gotten into fixed mindset behaviors, they don't even recognize that they're doing it.

Nic
Right.

Laura
I mean, these you have to recognize that you're doing it and then you have to recognize that you don't want to be doing it. Right and understand the different ways that it is. It's hurting you and not helping you. And if you read it's Carol Dweck's book on mindset, and it will describe in much better detail than I'm describing any of this, but it comes down to the way that we talk to people, the way that we invite people to teams, the way that we do our work and see the world and it makes a huge difference. And I think when you're operating in a in a place that that is a fixed mindset, you can't see how you're hurting yourself.

Nic 
Right, and you know and it actually reminds me maybe alluded to this on the podcast before but like, the beginner's mind, experts in mind, right? It's two fields in the same sphere. So as you grow as you get older, your experience kind of takes your focus from being broad and you know, basic understanding to really narrow, straightforward this is what I know. The problem is you put blinders on your eyes and then you're only looking forward and you're not seeing the bigger picture. So even in really well established well run groups. It's almost always really important to bring in outside influence because they have a new perspective on things. It doesn't mean you have to change everything. But it gives you more ideas and gives kind of refreshes your business stances, your business models, and you're not just doing the same old, same old and that's kind of how I see it. When you start talking about it.

Laura 
Yeah, absolutely. It plays in a lot of different ways. Like that is a great example, I think. So a fixed mindset is underpinned by a belief that your abilities are fixed by your upbringing. So that's when people say like, you know, I can't do this because I have this limitation or I can't do this because or, you know, I have friends who are like, Well, my mom didn't teach me that or that's the way my Mom was, so that's the way I am. That's the fixed mindset. But turning that around and saying, This is where I was raised to, but I can be bigger and better than this. Then you have so it's all about your mindset, which then we all know your thoughts become your act, beliefs become your actions. So if you're thinking small and thinking fixed, your actions become small and fixed. And if you're thinking big and you're thinking, I believe we all can do things better together, than that's what you get. And so, but I think the biggest problem is just self awareness. People don't see when they are behaving in that fixed mindset behavior.

Nic 
Interesting. And, you know, in my experience, too, there's it's really hard for, like an outside person to influence that, right? If you say to somebody, Hey, you have a fixed mindset, you should, you know, think better, you know, it's not gonna work right. And it almost still has to be supportive and suggestive without being a demanding or overbearing and being like, you must change the way you do things. So how do you get somebody who has that mindset to kind of let go of it?

Laura 
Yeah, so that's really challenging, because I don't think you can unless the person wants to and recognizes it. So if you're on a team with somebody who keeps coming up with that sort of mindset, and those sort of ideas or wants to hold everything back while you're trying to move things forward.

Nic 

Well, like if it's somebody that's working for me, and that's how they see things, I feel very comfortable saying, ah okay, look, we have to reassess how we're looking at things and sitting somebody down and actually talking through why do you feel this way? How are you feeling? The challenge I have is kind of, you know, when you're dealing with people who are either in a different group than you are a different tier, basically. So if you're talking about the leadership of a company or something like that, or we're an organization then it's a lot harder, I think, because, hey CEO, I know you have 10,000 employees, I understand, but let me tell you something, ya know, you're kind of fixed mindset. It's not going to work. I like to keep my job too. I'm pro keeping employment.

Laura 
Well you know to that end you do have to recognize what the relationship is with the person. Can you just flat out say it and if not, maybe you just have to do a really good job on explaining the why and the benefits, why the solution you're putting forth is limiting our growth and success and why we think this alternative is better and they are they're gonna accept or not. And then at the end of the day, I know you said you want to keep your job, but sometimes you gotta go.

Nic 
Yeah, that's true. That is true.

Laura 
And people wonder why my good people keep leaving. And if that's you, maybe you have a fixed mindset.

Nic 
Yeah, I know. We've talked about it before, I think you know, one of my favorite memories in that exact realm was, everyone keeps leaving all these dang millennials they don't want anything and you're talking to a roomful of millennials. It's literally it was 35 millennials and this guy, he's like, these millennials don't want the same things that we did. And I'm like saying, Why are you saying these millennials? They're right here.

Nic 
It's like, I am a millennial.  Now I don't like you. Instant. It was instant.  I'm like, you're wondering why. I'll give you a good example. This.

Laura 
Yeah. And that's totally fixed mindset. That's my generation. So this is the way I am I can't change whether you're young or old, you know, like, that's fixed mindset. Being able to say we had an argument with my boyfriend's uncle at dinner the other night because he didn't want to say he's well, he'll say it, but he does it begrudgingly to use, they instead of she and her, and we're like, Oh my gosh. Get over yourself. Fixed Mindset right there. I'm too old to change. Yeah. But anyway, I think we've beat that to death. So

Nic 
I agree. Perfect.

[Interview with Nadean Carson Starts]


Nic
Welcome back to EPR. Today we have Nadean Carson on the show. Nadean is the owner and founder of Oya Construction, which brings construction and improving the environment together in one place. Welcome Nadean.

Nadean Carson
Hi!

Nic
We're so glad to have you here. And you are a self professed stormwater nerd.

Nadean Carson
Complete stormwater nerd.

Nic
Yeah, So where did love of all for you? Yeah. So where did that come from? Where did the love come from?

Nadean Carson 

So I've always been very passionate about the environment, but I also really love construction. And it's something that I've felt for a long time had to be two separate entities. I grew up even before we had Adopt a Highway we were cleaning up the roadside, I always cared about our environment. So then when I went to into the military, they made me a stormwater manager in the desert. And then I got out, I did some more things and somehow or other I managed to put construction and environmental together and to me, this is like the most exciting thing in the entire world. Because I'm a nerd.

[Air Force]

Nic  
I'm glad you brought up the Air Force because I think it's kind of wild that you do stand with someone a manager in the desert. I actually have done a lot of that myself. And I know it sounds ridiculous but but super important. There's only one kind of rain in the desert and it's it's either none or all of it. So how do you manage how do you manage storm water in a desert?

Nadean Carson 
So it was very funny because this was at the very beginning of this storm water implementation in the US. And a lot of people were trying to figure out what needed to be done, what the rules meant and all of this other stuff. And since I was on a military installation, it is automatically federal and you have to abide by the rules and all of these other things. So everybody else around us was like what's stormwater and I'm like, how do we comply with the regulations of the EPA that just you know, and so a lot of it was learning the regulations and how it would impact us. What do we need to do? Do we have to have education? Do we have to have public outreach, you know what, things like that, but the actual nuts and bolts of managing stormwater? It was, is there an erosion happening anywhere is anywhere flooding is it because it's either all or nothing? It is super extreme. And there's a lot of places that I got to go and visit and work with like Albuquerque, New Mexico, where all their rain comes down from a mountain and so it rains and then they flood, like super fast. So it's really cool and very unique, but I did make plenty of jokes about the fact that Okay, seriously, you made me manage stormwater in a desert. Are you telling me I don't have a job?

Nic  
Well, there had to be some challenges with that in the beginning. Were a lot of those just like intellectual problem solving, or did you also have people who didn't see the value in it?

Nadean Carson 
See, the Military's funny. You don't get to say oh, that's not important. You are told this is important. And that's it. So it wasn't like anybody ever went this is really stupid number. There's no chance of us ever having to deal with this. It was these are the regs? Yes, ma'am. What do we need to do? And that was it. So it most of it was intellectual. Most of it was what does this mean? Talking to state regulators, talking with EPA, like what do you mean by this? What's the meaning of the word shall and you know, being what the regulations meant in real world like, these are great, lofty ideas. What do they really mean?

Nic 
Yeah, I love that you mentioned that too, because I really think people that have this understanding, you know, this assumption that the military just doesn't do environmental but they're some of the best stewards in the in the country and maybe even in the world, sometimes, like Eglin Air Force Base, having the biggest woodpecker population, for example, you know, so, do you have any other examples of how the Air Force has done some of those really important environmental policy updates?

Nadean Carson 
It's really phenomenal. And I agree, a lot of people think that like we go over and rape and pillage the land but that's not true at all. When I was stationed at Andrews Air Force Base, I worked in NEPA a lot. And so everything that we did on a military installation had to go through a NEPA review, and we were very closely looking at everything. What are the impacts? Do we need to do any kind of sort of EIS or EA, or does it fall within one of the other things? So I think projects are more closely scrutinized and looked at closer because they are looked at as a standard, like you're supposed to be doing the right thing all the time.

Nic
Right.

Laura 
That's really cool. I'm always curious. We'll follow up on this before we jump into talking about your company. But what made you join the Air Force to begin with and prior to that, did you have a love for the environment or anything? It was just a happy coincidence that you got thrown into it?

Nadean Carson 
So my story is super weird. I loved the environmentment when I was growing up, and like I said, I always was you know, wanting to make things pretty and I got very upset with trash like the basic things. Like in the 80s Nobody was like ooh, recycling. Yeah, this nerd was.

Laura
Yeah, brick in your tank.

Nadean Carson
So I always love that I came from a very beautiful place out in the country. And that was something I cared about. I wanted things to stay beautiful and I wanted to protect our wildlife and all of the beauty that was around us. So when I went to school, I went to school on an ROTC scholarship for the Air Force. So here's how I wanted to go into the military. But I really didn't know what I wanted to do when I grew up. So I knew that I was really good at math and I was really good at science and I had been accepted into one of the best universities in the country. And I applied for engineering physics, because I liked physics. And the Air Force said, Yeah, you're going to be an engineering physicist, and we're in my head. I'm like, Yeah, I'm gonna fly jet planes. So I went to Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, Go Eagles, and started in engineering physics and then realize very quickly, I am not as smart as I thought I was. And had to look at everything again. Like what do I want to do? Why do I not like physics? What do I like? What don't I like and that type of thing and I found civil engineering? And I said wait a minute. You mean, there's actually an engineering profession that deals with construction? Sign me up, I'm there. So learn more about civil engineering. I had an amazing professor that basically, his wife taught me my very first environmental class. And I said, I really want to do more environmental work. And so he said, let's set your program up to where you can do a lot of electives for environmental. So although I didn't have a minor in it, that's what I put all of my electives into is different aspects of environmental work. So it was something that was always important to me, and I kind of always thought it was going to be one or the other. And I was very excited when I got in the military. And I was able to kind of do both, but different times and see the different aspects of it. But yeah, there's no really good straight line there is, hey, I'm doing this. Hey, I'm doing this. All over the place. Like just there's no straight line. I'm from all over the place. So it was a happy coincidence.

[Smart Construction]

Laura 
Awesome. That's great. And then at what point was it after you left the Air Force? I'm assuming that you started your own company.

Nadean Carson 
Oh, yes. So I got out in 2005. God, I hate saying that because I realized how old am I. I got out of the Air Force in 2005. And I worked for other people. That's what I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go into all these different companies and I'm going to do really great and I'm going to make these people a lot of money. Never thought about starting my own company ever. I worked as a contractor I worked as a geotechnical engineer, which means you play in dirt. I did all these really amazing things. And then I had an opportunity to work with an engineering group where they said, you know, you think about stormwater and I busted out laughing and said I used to manage stormwater in the desert to which they looked at me quizzical  and said, how do you manage stormwater in the desert. Nic! So then we had this idea that this was starting to impact some of our clients on construction sites, and how do we help them out with that? And so I started a stormwater division for this engineering group. And I was there for eight years, and I got super frustrated about being able to tell people things were wrong, but not fixing it. So they would be very busy. They would have other priorities. They wouldn't have enough personnel, whatever. There's valid reasons, but you know, as a as an environmentalist, I'm looking at it going, but you're tracking mud off the site. And so I got really frustrated about not being able to fix it and not being able to give them solutions. And that was where all Oya Construction was born.

Laura 
Awesome. You and Shannon Oelkers, our last guest,  she's been on twice, problem solvers. I love it. Which really, if you own a business, you have to be a problem solver. So that's awesome. So the name of the company is Oh, yeah? Oya Construction.

Nadean Carson
Wish I would have said that. Oh, yeah it is.

Laura
Oh yeah! So, I love it. Um, but I'm sure that's it's Oya. Is that right? So where did it come from?

Nadean Carson 
So Oya is the African Goddess of severe rain events.

Nic  & Laura
Ohhhh.

Nadean
Yeah, Right?!

Nic
We all learned that at the same time.

Nadean Carson 
So yeah, that is something you know, I had a lot of people go do you really want to have a name of your company that has that many vowels in it?

Laura 
And you said, Oh, yeah.

Nadean Carson 

But it's also something that sticks with people, which I love. You know, once I hear that you're like, ooh, stormwater goddess. Yeah. So that's how I got the name,

Nic 

Yeah. Well, stormwater is really it's a really important thing. So often, I've seen so many examples of where it kind of becomes an afterthought, or it's put in the back burner. And the, you know, you see for example you know, I'll show up and be like, hey, this road is washing out. If you don't fix this, you won't have a road. And they'll be like, Yeah, sure. And then six months later, a huge storm event happens and there's no road. So that happens sometimes I've seen hilarious mitigation, where they put up a silt fence that has two inches of clearance underneath it. You're like, why did you even bother? I'd rather you not put this here.

Nadean
Because it's looked at in the lens, I did it.

Nic
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. So how do we get better at that?

Nadean Carson 

You know, honestly, I think a lot of it is just letting people understand why they see this as something they have to do not something they want to do and they don't connect it with why it's important. So what I always like to do with like, especially a lot of contractors that are like, this is stupid, as I say, do you go fishing? And they're like, Well, yeah, why? I was like, Do you hate it when the river's muddy and all your fish are in now? Yeah, hate it. Do you know why it's muddy? It's cause it sediment leaving places. And so when I connected a little bit more then it makes it important to them. Or people don't understand that stormwater in most places are not treated at wastewater treatment plants. It goes directly into our creeks and rivers. So a lot of people don't even realize that and so they don't see the importance of it. They think well, it doesn't matter if there's oil on here. They'll get it out of the treatment place. No, it doesn't. So I think a lot of it is educating people and letting them know because I've been doing this for a while. And I'm always surprised at the lack of knowledge on most people's, they put a stencil on the thing and they're like I don't understand why there's a stencil on this. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't connect for them. When you throw a cigarette butt on the ground. It is going into our river. So

Nic 
yeah. And then I think the other side of that too, is when people see your construction site in general. They assume, oh this is ruining the environment. This is bad for everything. So I do think we've gotten a little bit better with emerging technologies and practices to improve how we build are we going in the right direction?

Nadean Carson 
I think so. But the thing that I,  I hope that we're putting as much energy into in developing all these new technologies, is also having regulatory agencies realize, like they need to realize how things are really built. And builders need to understand why the regulatory authorities are saying this. So oftentimes, I find it's like a versus, you know, contractors don't want to do this because they're being forced to regulator say, do this because I told you to, instead of why can't we put this there? Does that make sense? Instead of using a little bit more common sense? I can't tell you how many times I've seen silt fence on the top of the hill and the last time I checked, water does not flow up hill. A regulator wanted to feel good about it, and they said put silt fence around the entire site, which is a waste of resources. And all that does is make the contractor angry and not want to do it. So, you know, I think that we're improving and I think that more regulatory agencies are starting to ask these questions of, is that really a good idea? And they're starting to actually listen to one another. I have a lot of contractors who now understand why I'm passionate about the work that I do and how it impacts their development. So yes, I think we're moving there. I think there's a lot of really cool proprietary systems out there that are so fascinating, because once again, I'm a nerd. fascinating to learn about and how they work and all of these other things. But I think that we need to continue looking for other options and not just, Hey silt fence. It works. Period. I think we need to continue looking for alternative resources, alternative things that we can use, how can you stabilize your site better because if you seed it in July in Virginia, you're not going to grow? So how do we make it better, that type of thing.

[Stormwater Management]

Nic 
So what are some of those technologies? What are some of those things? You're seeing that you're really excited about? But let's nerd out? Why not?

Nadean Carson 

Yay!!! I love it when people let me do this. So everybody, like I'm in Virginia, and Virginia has a book we call it the "Green Book". It's our erosion sediment control measures book and this is what says this is how you build things. And it was written in like 1996. And I'm very excited that the Commonwealth is now looking at redoing this book. But right now, let's just say it's old, and it says okay, construction [23:30 unintelligible] you put down fabric you put down stone, you make it this long, this wide. That's it. And I don't know how many construction sites you've been on, and they do it and then it gets choked down with mud. It starts tracking out. There's stone in the streets. There's everything that could possibly go wrong. They don't put the fabric down, because they don't, they don't want to do it. Or they do it perfectly and then they keep throwing stone on and through the course of the project you get like a lot of layers of extra stone? Then if and what do you have to do with that? You have to rip it all out and dispose of all this. So there's this really cool new technology. I am not endorsed by them, although they should sponsor me and there's this really cool thing called FODS, which anybody in the military in the Air Force knows that FOD is foreign object debris or airfields. So they actually named their product FODS mats, and it looks like for lack of a better word, a large Lego mat and it's got to actually have a little sample in here, what's got raised triangles on it's plastic, it's like a hard plastic and you put them down on the ground. And as the tire rolls over it, it beats the mud off of it. You're not tracking off stone. At the end of the project. You pull it up and you go and put it on another site. So you reuse it over and over again. We're reducing waste that way. We're not putting down stone and stone, and stone and throwing it away. It's faster to put it in labor wise, and maintenance wise. So things like that I think are amazing, and that's what I wanted to base my company on is how do we do things smarter now here's where your contractors are, you know, because you're like, why would anybody do it the other way? Because one they don't know, or two. postings are expensive, which is why FODS should sponsor me and just give me a whole bunch because they're expensive. So you have to make the investment into it. And it's cheaper to put down stone at the very beginning of a project, but how many times you're going to add stone to it. What about the labor that's involved? What about this and a lot of a lot of contractors don't look at the lifetime costs of things. They just say how much is it to do this initially? And then they fight along the way? No, it's fine. I don't want to put money into that. Everybody needs to make money. I mean, flat out I understand this and I'm never going to dog a contractor because they didn't want to do something because it's not in their budget. They need to make money, they need to pay people so I get that one. I've got all kinds of them, seriously.

Laura
What's another one? I want to hear another one

Nic 
Yeah, give us another one.

Nadean Carson 

Okay! See at this point, people are usually like, I need to go find someone else and they wander away.

Laura 
That's why we have this podcast though. We're all, everyone listening. We're nerds. Everybody was like Ooh, cool environmental advancements. Let's hear it.

Nadean Carson 
That is so cool! So right now I'm a big advocate to finding out how we can use hemp in erosion and sediment control measures. How is it that we can use coconut fibers how can we use things that will break down organically instead of plastic everywhere? How can we reduce our footprint for waste and carbon and all of these other things? So recently, I started working with a supplier and getting hemp hurd, which I had never heard of. But so it's, it's basically like the stock of the plant and they grow this industrially and they make it into mulch. So imagine mulch, but it's super, super light. So it's easy to transport. It's easy to spread, and I get some super, super fine and I spread it on the site and this is what goes back to this temporary stabilization. So when you're done with your grading, you need to protect that from rain. You know if a rain comes, is it going to wash off, if you leave dirt exposed? Yeah, it's going to it's going to create erosion rails is going to have all these other things. So one of the things I'm experimenting with is actually scattering this hemp hurd, very finely grained ground hemp hurd on site so it will protect the soil. It doesn't wash away like hay does or doesn't fly away and it starts biodegrading so if we spread this all over a site in July, and it has months and months and months, it's going to actually start adding more organics into the soil. So that when we're ready to seed for permanent, we're going to have a little bit more organics in there. As far as I know. Nobody else has been like hey, let's use hemp for this. But I recently brought a lot of regulatory personnel out to my site and said, Hey, look at this. And they were like, oh, that's gonna blow away and I was like, it's been here for eight weeks. And they're like, Oh, well, it's gonna wash away and one of the guys is like, it has not moved since they put it in like one of the guys drove by there all the time. He's like we've had massive storms. And every one of them said, Wow, I never would have thought about that. But it looks like it's working really well. So I think that there's a lot of alternatives out there. Some of it is how can we use things better? Some of it is somebody made a better mousetrap. Let's look at you know, utilizing this other measure, but it takes people actually sitting there thinking these things through. And it also takes regulatory agencies to have an open mind to say, Oh, look, this isn't exactly what they specified. But it works.

Laura  
Or just let's try it right. Like you have to be you have to get permission to try it, don't you?

Nadean Carson
Yes.

Laura
Yeah. So that's

Nadean Carson 

I'm very lucky that I know a lot of regulatory people in this area. And so when I say hey, this is a really good idea, Can we try it out? They know that I have the best interest of the construction project and the environment. And a lot of times I get a little bit more leniency. And I tell them, hey, if it doesn't work, we'll pull it out and do it your way. And I really hope that doesn't happen because but most of the time people are like okay, we'll give it a shot.

Laura  
Yeah, cool. Well, that's all still problems because I believe that hemp stocks are a waste product, right? So it needs to go somewhere.

Nadean Carson  
And I'm trying to learn more about it. And everybody's like, Wow, you really are a hippie. But I'm trying to learn more about the industry and about industrial hemp uses and how we can incorporate it and stuff so it's really been fascinating. It's been a great I went down a lot of rabbit holes learning about this stuff so

Laura 
I bet. It's one of those things where just like is there anything have can't solve everything. It works for everything.

Nadean Carson 
It's great for phytoremediation like I got super excited one time talking. There was a she's a hemp activist in our area and she's brilliant. And she was like, Oh, we use it for this, this and this and I was like, well, environmentally it does this, this this. It's just like, it's so magical. Yeah,

Laura 
that's awesome. Yeah, so speaking of storms, storms are getting heavier in some places disappearing and others, popping up in other places where they aren't used to having rains. How is climate change making your work different or more challenging?

Nadean Carson 
It's not always that it's not going on places. What we usually find is that there are longer times between storm events. So with the heating up the atmosphere and everything, there's more water that's evaporating, more getting up there. And then when it comes down, it comes down massively. So the quantity of rain that's coming down is so much greater, like we don't normally have these nice little gentle rains, we have storms now. And it dumps a lot of water in a very short amount of time, the intensity and the duration of these storms are increasing along with the drought in between. And that's also very problematic because when the soil is so so so dry, and it gets all of this water at one time, it can't absorb it, and so it runs off, and that's another part of stormwater pollution. But it also is really impacting how these sites are constructed and designed. So most engineers design sites based off of rainwater standards from a long time ago. And they're like, Oh, we anticipate having six inches of rain over you know, and storm events won't be more than two inches of rain. And they designed for that standard so that when we have these huge rain events, the erosion sediment control measures get blown out. And it has I mean, they say oh look, you know, you just contributed sediment into this wetland. Well, we put those measures up as it showed on the plans. And yeah, they did. And they maintained them and they did all these other things. So I think that standards need to be changed. I think we need to be looking at not just our site, but we need to be looking at what's upstream, what's downstream. How are we going to impact people below us? How are we going to improve impervious surfaces to be able to absorb more water? It's so challenging to try to explain to somebody why even though they put these up exactly as it's supposed to why it failed. And if God forbid, they go, climate change isn't real. Then you go, so what do you think of the storm last week? It's super challenging, and I think it's probably one of the largest issues that's affecting stormwater right now.

Laura  
Yeah, I can imagine. I know you mostly work with construction. Do you have any advice for listeners on how they might be able to mitigate stormwater runoff in their homes or their business?

Nadean Carson 
Ah, of course I do. Take a step back and I used to always say there's two ways of looking at things Number one, if I were a raindrop, so if you were a raindrop and you fell on something, what would happen to it? Are you washing it away? So if you think about like cigarette butts and things like that, what would happen? It would wash away. If you fell into liquids, what would happen it would wash away and then also if a massive storm came, what would happen? So if you have let's say, you're digging up something in your backyard and here comes a huge storm, what's going to happen? Is that dirt gonna run off? Is it going to do something else? But the other really important thing and this is shocking, everybody get ready for it. Water flows downhill. I know it's shocking when I say this, because I can't tell you how many times people are like my basement is flooding and I go and I look and I'm like your downspouts are directed to your house. Where do you think this water is gonna go? And so look at things from a kind of a common sense aspect of water is going to flow with gravity. So my downspout's too high and elevation so it's not flowing. Is it pointing water away from my house? Are we concentrating it too much? I mean, there's so many awesome ways of doing things. So there's a lot of places that are now doing a stormwater fee. So municipalities will basically you can't say tax you can't say fee, they will assess the amount of money based off of how much impervious area you have. So that sidewalks, driveways, roofs, sheds anything. Based on that X amount of cents per acre square footage, and then you pay that every year. And a lot of people are upset about that. But our stormwater system has not been it's not caught up with anything. We haven't kept it updated. We haven't kept it taken care of. And then everybody gripes about flooding. That's a whole different story. So but this is what this money is going towards is is helping us maintain our storm systems. So if you want as a homeowner to lessen your impact, can you use something that will absorb water instead of running it off? Can you put your runoff from your gutters into a rain barrel? That's seems to be like the big exciting thing and then you've got water days for your plants later on when it's dry. Can you use a storm garden? Can you plant vegetation that will help keep this water on site instead of taking it down to your neighbor? So anything that you can do to have that water percolate back into your ground is the best thing that you can do. So the the it used to be good at off site and make it go away fast? Now, if you can keep it on site, that's the best.

[Workplace Inclusivity]

Laura 
Okay, awesome. And inclusivity in the workplace seems to be very important to you. Where does that stem from and why do you make a point to include that in your work?

Nadean Carson 
I have been doing construction and environmental work for 22 years now and,

Laura 
I have to applaud you for being a woman working directly in construction. I mean, let's just call that what it is. That has to be hard. Some days.

Nadean Carson 
What's really funny, most the time, it's not. And you know, I had two women that I hired at my last job that are amazing. And one of them was like if I get asked one more time, what it's like to be a woman in on a construction site. I'm going to punch somebody. I do my job Period, end of story. And it's one of those things, so I've seen really great examples. I've seen really awful examples of how diversity is treated in construction. I think that everybody wants to focus on women and construction. But what they also need to look at is at risk youth, maybe they could be going into construction. What about different types of demographics? Are we seeing enough bipoc representation? Are we seeing gender non conforming? Are we seeing different sexual orientations? I think things are getting better. I really do. But I want it to be where if you go to work, you don't have to automatically not consider construction as an alternative. So as a little girl do they say I could be this and this or I could work in construction or I could play with these trucks. Are we making it to where it's no big deal. And right now it's starting to get there but I want to create somewhere where you don't have to be part of yourself at work. I want you to bring everything about you to work. I want you to be comfortable and talking to me about your family no matter what it looks like. And especially in the South. I think that a lot of times there's a lot of good ol boy mentality. And that's harmful. It's harmful when you're on site, and people make a racist joke. It's harmful when people make jokes about sexual orientations. It creates an environment that is hostile. And I love construction. I love everything about it and I love how much it's improving. But it has been hard a few times in dealing with some of that mentality and some of the, well you can't do that. Actually, yeah, I can. So I think that inclusivity and diversity in construction is one of the biggest things that we really need to tap into. There are so many amazing people that should be in our industry that aren't because of either bullying, or they don't see it as an option. So that's something that I'm very passionate about.

Laura 
And just doing that work and talking about it and showing you're interested in I think is is a part of that change and solution. So that's wonderful. Thank you for being here and sharing with us.

Nadean Carson 
Yeah, I mean, honestly, if you can't tell, I really love what I do. It's so exciting, like every day, you know, you get bored with the same old, same old. I've been writing a proposal this morning and it's boring, but then you start talking about why you're doing it. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is the coolest job in the entire world. Having a chance to talk to people about it and let them really understand what it is. And it's great to be able to you know, bring it up by the way. I'm also a woman that works in construction, no big deal. Um, It's getting better.

Nic  
Yeah, and you know, it's fine. One of the one of the things we love to do on the show is to kind of give people like a full range of who a person is, right. So you are an environmental person you love stormwater. You also have pretty unique hobbies and use the play roller derby, for example, right? It's a wild and intense sport so what was that like? Right, well, what drew you to?

Nadean Carson 
So when I moved to Roanoke, I didn't know how I got out of the military. And it's really hard regular military to figure out how to live in a non military world. So when you go to a new base, people are like, Oh, look, new person. Let's bring them in. When you move to a new town and you don't know anybody. It's really hard to figure out how to make friends. And I was working at a contractor. So like everybody that I worked with, I was like, I don't know 25,26 at the time, and everybody I worked with was in their 50s and white men period. And so the end of the day they would go home to their families and I was like, Oh, this is boring. I need friends,I need friends like me. And I had a friend visiting from out of town and we went to go eat pizza my favorite place. And I looked up in the window and there was a flyer that said are you over 18? Do you have health insurance? Are you aggressive? And I was like Yes! All those things! And so it was like, you know, come and talk about roller derby. And so that's the reason I did it. I liked skating when I was a kid, but I hadn't been on roller skates in forever and I was like how bad could it be? Yes, it was bad. Like Bambi on ice bad. But those women were I mean, this is back in 2005 when roller derby was just really starting to get out there. And we were kind of coming up with our own rules and our own thing , and these women were strong and they were brave and amazing. And I've gotten some of my absolute best friends in my life from there. Every summer we get together. We are scattered all over the US now. And once a year we all come to one place. This year it's St. Louis and a couple of weeks to be together and celebrate each other. But when you talk about needing support or needing somebody to understand you, those are my girls. And I mean it was fun. You got to skate around hitting people for Pete's sake. And at the time we did it and like fishnets and short skirts and it was just fun. And it was very punk rock. So it was it was a great experience and I really loved it. And it was really funny because I very much kept it away from my professional life until it kind of took over everything in my life. And then my clients are like I'm sorry you do what? It actually became a really good kind of marketing thing for me because people were like, oh, yeah, the girl who does roller derby I was like, Yeah, also known as Nadean but yeah, it's fun. It's cool. It's, you know, and then I shattered my leg and decided maybe I shouldn't do that anymore and but you know, it's something that is a huge part of my life. You know, my history?

Nic 
Yeah. It's a very practical decision. You know, now that my knee is gone.

Nadean Carson
Small things.

Nic
Small things right. But I love that. You also you went back to school to pursue a master's degree while you were working as a stormwater program manager. And

Nadean Carson
Yes.

Nic
you know, we hear some of those stories here and there, but that's it's a really challenging thing to do where you have, you're working and pursuing a degree. So do you have any advice for people trying to do that? And maybe like, how did you handle that time management?

Nadean Carson 
My advice is have a good support system in your life. I'm very lucky that I had a partner that was hey, you study I'll make dinner. You have this paper coming up. Don't worry about anything in the house. I've got this. I had a really great support system. And I was convinced like, this isn't how much I've got time. This is the time period, I'm going to get this degree and I focus very hard on it. And I was like, that's, that's all I'm gonna do. I'm very lucky for that. I think a lot of people go and they're like, well, I'll take one class and then I'll take another class and it still it drags it out forever. And how do you keep that motivation when you're like, This is never going to end and it's taking forever. I met some amazing people in my program that it was based more on adult students versus you know, people straight out of school. So it was really interesting to be able to put real world experiences into class and talk with you know people about things and to be able to use those, my experiences my life lessons in schoolwork, and vice versa. I say that you need to stop your life while you're doing it. At the same time we also bought a house and renovated during that time period, which was a stupidest idea I've ever had in my entire life. I was like, No, we're not doing it at school. We're not doing anything until I get out of school. We're not buying a house. Oops, we found our perfect house. Let's do this while I'm going to grad school. Why not? So I mean, you can do other things, but for that semester only took one class because you know, you got to have something but it was wonderful.

Laura
Wow, you are a powerhouse.

Nadean Carson
So but my house was always very, very dirty and I don't care

Laura 
You've got to sacrifice something, or something's got to give as I say. Is that where you met Kara?

Nadean Carson
 
Yes. It is! We did a whole lot of online stuff. And you kind of got to know the same people that you're in classes with. And so like every semester you'd like, look at the agenda, you know, who's who's in my class and be like, Oh, hey, I remember you from and it's funny. How close I feel that people and have never met them. Kara?

Laura 
Yeah, it's very cool. So glad we're connected here. Well, we're at the end of our time. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us before we let you go?

Nadean Carson 
Don't give me open into questions like that?

Laura 
The clock is at 60 seconds. What do you got?

Nadean Carson 
You're like, I got to go to dinner now. It's been five hours, stop. I don't know. I think that everybody should have open minds and learning more about environmental impacts of, of everything. There's a lot of discussions about hybrid vehicles and which is better gas or electricity that's derived by coal plants. There's not going to be a one size fits all answer to anything. I think that you have to look at it holistically. What is my impact doing this? How can I do something that makes the world a little better? People try to minimize their impacts. But that is the only way that we're ever going to get anything done is by all of us making our impact and also try to hold corporations and stuff like that accountable. So money drives everything. So how can we help things be more cost effective? To make it normal.

Nic 
Yeah. Yeah.

Laura  
Awesome. Love it. And then where can people get in touch with you, including, you know, the FODS Mats people. I'm sure they're just dying to call you now.

Nadean Carson
They reall should.

Laura

So where should people reach out to?

Nadean Carson 
My website is www.oya.construction. O-Y-A  construction all spelled out .com. I'm also on LinkedIn as a Oya Construction, and on Facebook. So there's all kinds of ways plus you know, my name is pretty unique. You google Nadean and Oya and I betcha you'll find me. But yes, I want to talk to people. I love this stuff. I love doing podcasts. I love expressing things so please call me and sponsor my company so I can do cool things.

Laura
Love it! Thanks, Nadine.

Nic
Thank you.

[Outro]

Nic 
Thank you Nadean for joining us today. It was a really fun conversation. Really enjoyed it. And you can check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. See everybody

Laura
Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai



Nic & Laura Segment: Fixed vs. Growth Mindset
Interview with Nadean Carson Starts
Air Force
Smart Construction
Stormwater Management
Workplace Inclusivity